HC Deb 26 May 1864 vol 175 cc663-5
MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, he had been long of opinion that the present system of dealing with the Estimates, especially those of the Civil Service, was most unsatisfactory. The number of hon. Members attending when those Estimates were under discussion was always limited, and still fewer took any part in the discussions upon them. It was too late to move that the Estimates generally for the present year be referred to a Select Committee, which would be the most satisfactory method of investigating them; but there were one or two special classes as to which an exceptional course might and ought to be taken. It should be remembered that whatever increase took place on the annual Estimates, except with regard to exceptional items like the Prince of Wales's marriage, or the monument to the Prince Consort, became a permanent source of increase. That increase had jumped up £50,000 during the present year. It was very desirable that the various items should undergo preliminary examination by a Select Committee. He confidently felt that the time had come when the House ought to adopt a different system than the present for the examination of the Estimates. A Committee of the Whole House scarcely ever carried a reduction in the Estimates, though he believed that they did much good in discussing the Estimates generally, yet it was very difficult to follow up such in minute particulars in a large assembly. If a Select Committee were appointed to examine Class No. 2, they might in the meantime in Committee of the Whole House proceed with the other classes. It might be objected that such a Committee would diminish Ministerial responsibility, but that responsibility was a perfect myth, because under the present system, as soon as the House adopted the Estimates, the responsibility of the Government was at an end. He should conclude by moving— That the Miscellaneous Civil Service Estimates, Class 2, laid upon the table of the House, be referred to a Select Committee to examine the same in reference to the past expenditure for the Civil Services, and to report to the House any reductions, better arrangement, or other particulars connected with that branch of the Public Expenditure which in their opinion deserve the attention of the House when the said Estimates are under their consideration.

SIR JOHN SHELLEY

begged to second the Motion. He thought that every hon. Gentleman must agree that nothing could be more unsatisfactory than the present manner of examining the Estimates, and he believed that if the Motion of his hon. Friend were agreed to, it would be productive of great good. The recommendations of the Select Committee of 1860 had in many respects been carried into effect, and much good had resulted there from. He did not see that the responsibility of the Ministers would be one jot lessened whether the Estimates were examined by a Select Committee or by a Committee of the Whole House. He firmly believed that the more the accounts were examined the better the works would be executed.

MR. SPEAKER

said, he must remind the hon. Member that the House having negatived the Amendment, and having affirmed that "the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," there was no room for the Motion of the hon. Member. The Question before the House at present was that he "do now leave the Chair."

MR. PEEL

said, he could not help thinking that the House was likely to be disappointed if it expected any results from the Committee proposed by the hon. Member. The Committee of 1860 examined the most vulnerable of those Estimates—Class 1. They took evidence, but they were unable to agree upon any other recommendation than that the First Commissioner of Works should be a permanent officer of the Civil Service. In 1848 a Committee sat on the subject of miscellaneous expenditure, and they came to the conclusion that the best security for economy was the existence of a Government honestly bent on retrenchment and reduction. Any proposal, however, to refer the Estimates of the current year to a Committee was a step in the wrong direction, because the Committee, and not the Government, would in that case be regarded as responsible for the Estimates. The hon. Gentleman had not got over the difficulty as to time by limiting his proposal to the Votes comprised in Class 2. That class embraced all the Civil Departments of the Government, and if a Committee upstairs were to direct its attention to the reductions which should be made in those establishments, it was obvious that the inquiry could not be terminated before it would be necessary to pass the Estimates. He thought the hon. Gentleman ought to acknowledge that there was a reduction in the Estimates of this year, and that it was satisfactory as far as it went. That reduction was not to be explained away by saying that it was due to the omission of the extraordinary expenses which appeared in the Estimates of previous years. There was an average amount of extraordinary expenses included in the present Estimates. There were, for example, the charges for the building of the new Foreign Office and the Record Office. As to the increase of £56,000, to which the hon. Gentleman had alluded, it could easily be accounted for without imputing extravagance to the Government; £16,000 of it was a merely nominal charge for postages, which went back into the Exchequer; another £16,000 was required for the registry of births and deaths in Ireland, and £10,000 more was required for the inspectorate of fisheries in Ireland, the last two items constituting an increased charge for two new establishments created by Acts of Parliament passed in the last Session. After deducting those sums from the £56,000, they had a residue of £14,000, which was not more than the amount of the ordinary annual increment in the salaries of the different public offices.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he thought the reason given for not submitting those Estimates to a Select Committee was most incorrect as regarded the responsibility of the Government, because when the Estimates were agreed to, that responsibility was taken away. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would turn his attention to the subject, and direct that the Estimates should be laid before the House before the 1st of April in each year. He begged to call attention to the great inconvenience of voting money on account.