§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do leave the Chair."
§ MR. AUGUSTUS SMITHsaid, he was in hopes that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury would, on the Motion for going into Committee on the Civil Service Estimates, have condescended to make some statement to the House with reference to the large amount of those Estimates, explaining why some of them had increased and why others had not been greatly diminished. Those Estimates amounted to near £8,000,000. Complaints had constantly been made that they were brought before the House without being fully considered by the Government. He had placed upon the paper a notice for a Committee of Inquiry into the whole subject, but it was not until Tuesday that this Motion obtained such a position as gave it a chance of coming on, and then for some reason or other the House was counted out. It pleased the hon. Knight who represents Coventry to work out the purpose of the Government in getting rid of his Motion on that occasion. Now, considering the hon. Member represented a constituency in which there was a greater number of the working classes included than in any other in the kingdom, he was the more surprised at such a course, and it was a proof that the fear of such bodies of electors were not likely, more than others, in influencing their representatives to do their duty as a check on extravagant expenditure. He wished to draw attention to the great increase that had taken place in those Estimates during the ten years from 1854 to 1864. During that time they had increased nearly £3,000,000, or more exactly £2,702,000. No doubt it was said that that increase was more apparent than real, because a variety of charges had been transferred to them which were formerly paid direct from the Consolidated Fund, but, taking both payments made from the Consolidated Fund and through Estimates, the actual increase was as he had stated. Taking first the payments which were made direct from the Consolidated Fund, the accounts stood thus:—
400
Payments direct from Consolidated Fund as given in the Financial Accounts No. 1 to 7. 1854. 1864. 1. Civil List £399,822 £405,843 2. Annuities and Pensions 351,699 312,066 3. Salaries & Allowances 275,684 185,718 4. Diplomatic 148,918 169,777 6. Justice 1,097,205 685,334 6. Misc. Charges 226,065 213,440 Carry forward £2,500,529 £1,972,181 The total under the six heads was £2,500,000 in 1854, and £1,965,000, in 1864, so that there was a diminution, not of the £1,100,100 transferred to the annual Votes, but of little more than £500,000. The total amount of the Estimates for 1854 was £4,471,500, while this year it was £7,702,000, and adding these figures to the Consolidated Fund charges, they had a total Civil Service expenditure of £6,972,088 in 1854, against £9,674,808, or an increase of £2,702,720 this year. The manner in which the Civil Service accounts were kept was most unsatisfactory. There was no regular debtor and creditor account which would show the expenditure in any one Department. And yet we maintained a most expensive staff to look after our expenditure. He was sorry that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not in his place, but probably the public expenditure was nothing to him, though he was always scolding the House for its extravagance. The right hon. Gentleman on a former occasion had admitted clearly and distinctly that the Treasury had no proper control over the different Departments of the Government, and it was that want of control which lay at the root of our large expenditure. Though the admission was important, the grievance was an old one. So long ago as 1810, a Committee upon Public Accounts was nominated, in whose report the evil was pointed out, notwithstanding it had never been thoroughly corrected yet. Now let the House consider the cost of the Executive, established for the purpose of looking after the public expenditure. At the Treasury we had, besides the First Lord, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, two Secretaries, and three Junior Lords to look after the expenditure, whose salaries amounted to £17,000 a year. As to the Junior Lords, if they were altogether discontinued it would be a great saving to the country. They were generally selected one from each of the 401 three kingdoms; and their chief function was to get what they could for their respective countries, and to assist in any jobs which might be going on. With their clerks and assistants the whole expense of the Treasury machinery was £60,000 a year. Then there was the Controller of the Exchequer, at £2,000, with his clerks, amounting altogether to £10,000; the Paymaster's Office, £25,000; the Audit Office, £40,000; making, in all, £135,000 for machinery for looking after our expenditure. Not only did the representatives of Departments neglect to exercise control over the public expenditure, but they neutralized the efforts of independent Members to obtain even an inquiry into the manner in which the public money was expended. Another subject of complaint which he urged was the haphazard character of the accounts and the incongruous items of which they were composed. The Board of Works sometimes determined on carrying out important works without any authority from the Treasury or from Parliament. The proposed School for Naval Architects would cost a large sum, and it had been settled that it should be situated at Kensington. He should like to know whether the Treasury had examined that plan and approved it. Another head of increased expenditure was salaries and pensions. It appeared from a Beturn moved for by Mr. Hume in 1849 that there were 8,000 persons receiving out of the public purse in the shape of salaries or pensions, ranging down to £50, and in 1862 a Return moved for by the hon. Member for Brighton showed that the number of persons in receipt of pensions had risen to 10,000, though the limit of such was confined to those who received sums exceeding £150 out of the public purse, so that from 1849 to 1862 the number of persons receiving salaries and pensions had increased by no less a number than 2,000. Another cause of their lavish expenditure was that they were apt to multiply offices and institutions designed for the same purpose. They had at the British Museum, at Jermyn Street, and at Kensington, collections of nearly the same nature, which often carried on a rivalry in the purchase of specimens, and actually bade against each other. The control of the Treasury ought to check that source of extravagance. Then they had other picture collections at Kensington, the National Gallery, and the Portrait Gallery, each of which entailed its 402 separate expenditure for maintenance and establishment. Again, at Greenwich they had an establishment of high scientific importance, which was very economically conducted; but then, again, they had a sort of duplicate to that in the Weather Department attached to the Board of Trade, which cost a very large sum. Anything more absurd than the system by which they attempted from day to day to prophesy the weather it was hardly possible to conceive. Fortune-telling was punished by law, but here they had a department of the Board of Trade which professed to foretell what the weather would be two days hence. He had tested a number of these weather prophecies by the result, and found that they were about once right and twice wrong. There was an institution at Paris of a much higher scientific order than that under the Board of Trade. He did not see why such meteorological observations as were necessary or valuable to us should not be taken at Greenwich, instead of our having two establishments or rather three, as there was another on a small scale at Kew, connected with the same subjects. The Board of Trade was a Department which had greatly expanded, and in reference to railways, it affected the powers of Pluto, and that of Neptune as respects the mercantile marine; but he did not think it should undertake the functions of Æolus. The principal departments in which the increased expenditure to which he referred had taken place were the Office of Works, the Office of Woods, the Office of Education and of Science and Art, the Irish Education Office, the Board of Trade, and then Law and Justice. That, however, to which he particularly wished to call the attention of the House was the expenditure in connection with superannuations. The sums paid under that head were astounding. The total amount of the pensions connected with the Civil Service was, he found, £1,262,000, while those for the non-effective portions of the army and navy, including what used to be called the dead weight, amounted to £4,200,000; so that we actually paid over £5,400,000 in the shape of superannuation allowances for past services, being one-thirteenth part of our total expenditure, including the debt, and actually one-eighth excluding the debt. The Board of Trade affords us a notable instance this year of the carelessness with which superannuations are granted by the Treasury in the cases of Lord Hobart and Mr. Edgar Bowring, the first of 403 whom is but forty-two years of age and the second but thirty-eight. The plea is abolition of office, which is a mere fiction in regard to both, as the actual official staff of the Board of Trade has been very largely extended. But there are an infinite number of ingenuous devices by which these jobs are perpetrated under the several terms of abolition of office—reduction—revision — regulation — re-arrangement — and re-organization. As regards Mr. Edgar Bowring, who held two offices there as Registrar and Librarian, and is pensioned off at the salary which he received for both, that of Librarian has been filled up at a salary, which, with that gentleman's pension, actually saddles the public with a heavier charge than was before incurred. If these parties are entitled to superannuations, there is not a clerk in any similar office of the same age who is not entitled to be as favourably dealt with. Then there were the Departments of Works and of Woods and Forests, the expenditure for which had greatly increased since their separation, as would be seen from the fact that while that expenditure for the ten years up to 1852 was only £364,627, it reached in the next ten years £686,456, or a total increase on ten years of £321,829, or £32,000 per annum. The receipts from Forests during the previous year amounted to £49,000, while the expenses were £32,000, so that the clear income derived by the country from what are called the Royal Forests did not amount to more than £17,000. It would be far better to sell them and apply the proceeds to the purchase of lands which the country wanted for a variety of other purposes. He also objected to the payment of large sums for pieces of ground which from time immemorial had been in the possession of the public. The site of the new Foreign Office was called Crown property, and many thousands had been paid for it to the Office of Works out of the monies voted by Parliament for purchasing the site necessary for those buildings, though, in the calculations given on which those votes were asked for, ground already belonging to the Crown was not included, or had Parliament the slightest notion that they were voting money to pay for what already belonged to the country. They pulled down the State Paper Office for some reason or other, which a few years ago cost £40,000 to erect, and then they paid £7,000 for the site which had been used 404 as Crown property for a very long time. Nothing was more likely than that the site of the present National Gallery would be claimed by the Office of Woods and Forests as Crown property, and that a large sum would be required to purchase it on the removal of the collection to Burlington Gardens. Enormous sums had already been expended in this way, and he trusted a stop would be put to so needless a waste of public money. It likewise occurred to him that a considerable saving might be effected in connection with the system of what may be called the clerkdom in public offices, and the mode of their selection by competitive examinations. That system, though useful in some respects, tended, as at present conducted, to great expenditure and also to extreme dissatisfaction. It encouraged persons of superior attainments to seek employment in the public service, and those persons, being above their work, were naturally dissatisfied with the existing scale of salaries, and adopted every means to raise it. What the country wanted, particularly in the Customs and Inland Revenue Departments, were mere clerks, able to read, write, and calculate, and not fine scholars. Recently all the employés in the Post Office wanted an increase of their salaries, though sufficiently well paid already, and he believed the same thing was going on in the Customs. He agreed with the views expressed by the late Sir Henry Parnell in his work On Financial Reform, that high salaries not only imposed a great burden upon the public, but also made clerks less efficient, and that there could not be a greater mistake than to suppose that fitness would follow in proportion as the amount of salary was higher. Sir Henry's words are remarkable, and he was sure the House would pardon him for quoting them. He writes, p. 206—
Brought forward £2,500,629 £1,972,181 Civil Services voted by Estimates £4,471,559 7,702,627 £6,972,088 £9,674,808 £6,972,088 Actual Increase in Ten Tears £2,702,720 Consolidated Fund Charges in 1854 £2,500,529 Do. in 1864. £1,972,181 Difference £ 528,348 Transferred from Consolidated Fund to Estimates above £1,100,100 The clerks in the commissariat are real clerks, not the sons of persons of the higher ranks, but of a humbler description. They are perfectly satisfied with what they receive, and do their work remarkably well…Those persons who are willing to work for a small remuneration have the greatest relish for work; and, therefore, giving low salaries will secure the filling of the low offices with the most efficient clerks.In their last Report, the Commissioners said that no person had been rejected except for want of efficiency in writing, spelling, and arithmetic; but the fact was that in the competitive examinations success depended in great measure upon the possession of qualifications which were 405 quite unnecessary for the work intrusted to public clerks, as anybody will discover who examines the candidate tables given in the Report, where those who are first in the above acquirements often do not succeed, inferior penmen excluding them by marks for geography, history, or other branches of a liberal education. The time had come for Parliament to look into the subject. It was one of the first duties of Parliament to check expenditure, and he was persuaded that if that duty were longer neglected the cry for Parliamentary reform would get louder and louder every year. They had frequently been told that, the voting of supplies was a mere matter of course, and that the Estimates must be taken upon the responsibility of Ministers. How was that official responsibility to be tested? What official victim could be sacrificed upon the altar of economy? By what means was the House to bring the guilt home to the real offender? If the Treasury would only apply themselves earnestly to the study of economy, and Parliament would back them, he was satisfied they might reduce the Civil Service Estimates by at least a million, that is one penny income tax, without impairing in the least degree the efficiency of the public service.
§ SIR JOSEPH PAXTONsaid, that the hon. Gentleman had alluded to him personally, as he happened to be the unfortunate wight who had interposed between him and the House on the previous Tuesday. The hon. Member had intended to deliver then the speech he had addressed to the House that night, but as on Tuesday there were only thirteen Members present, and he thought the hon. Gentleman's observations could be made with more effect and propriety on the Motion for going into Committee of Supply, he had called the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the state of the House. That evening the hon. Gentleman had spoken for an hour and a half, but he had not been able to secure a much larger audience, for during the greater part of his speech not more than twenty Members were in the House. As, however, the Estimates were before the House, he did not venture what he would have otherwise been inclined to do—to try a count. He would not anticipate the answer of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of the Treasury, but the field over which the hon. Gentleman had travelled was so large, and his opinions so decided, that one could not help suspecting he deemed himself quite 406 capable of carrying on the whole Government of the country, with the aid of two or three clerks.
§ SIR. HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, that at present only a few branches of the Civil Service expenditure were subject to the appropriation audit; but it was very desirable that the same check should be extended to the whole Estimates. He wished to know whether the Treasury had taken any steps with that object? The measure had been strongly urged by the Public Monies Committee. He did not quite agree with his hon. Friend the Member for Truro, as to the existing machinery being imperfect. In his opinion, however, the Audit Board and some other Departments had a tendency to fail for want of a clear and definite system of action; and the House would do well to give them more power and support. Even as it was, the Audit Board did good service. He believed, also, that the Office of Woods and Forests might be rendered more useful if it had fair play. That Department, and also the Ordnance, ought to be properly represented in the House. Hon. Members ought to try to improve the machinery now in operation, and not to discredit it. He would refrain from touching on the various questions raised by his hon. Friend, as they would be more properly discussed in Committee.
§ COLONEL SYKESsaid, the hon. Member for Truro deserved credit for the great trouble he had taken in examining an important subject, and in calling attention to the continual progressive increase of expenditure year alter year. That was a most melancholy fact and deserved consideration. As long as the Estimates remained at their present excessive figure, the country must be content to bear the heavy burdens now imposed. The first step to a reduction of taxation was, of course, a reduction of expenditure.
MR. PEELsaid, that the House would fall into a serious error if it was led to suppose that the Civil Service expenditure was not audited. On the contrary, the bulk of the Civil Service Estimates were audited with great minuteness. Only a few of the Votes, however, were subjected to the appropriation audit for the purpose of making a comparison between the actual expenditure of the year and the grants of money. He admitted that it was desirable that that audit should be extended so as to embrace all the services comprised in the Estimates, more especially as the Ap- 407 propriation Act now limited the grants made to the payments falling due within the year. The matter was under the consideration of the Government, with a view to seeing what could be done. The House, he was sure, would hardly desire him to follow the hon. Member for Truro through all the details of his speech. Indeed, he doubted whether he had it in his power to do so, as he had no idea that the hon. Gentleman was going to make so lengthened a statement, and to take so comprehensive and minute a survey, charging the Treasury with abusing and mismanaging every trust confided to them. As to the Lords of the Treasury availing themselves of appointments as a means of obtaining undue advantages for their constituencies, he could hardly suppose that the hon. Gentleman made that charge seriously. It was certainly altogether an unfounded suggestion. Then, again, instead of the Treasury comprising sinecure appointments, there was really no branch of the public service to which that remark less applied; and he believed the officers were generally fully employed. There was not a single instance in which the Secretary to the Treasury had prefaced the introduction of the Civil Service Estimates by a long speech. The fact was that these Estimates were quite different from those for the army and navy, which each referred to a single service. The Miscellaneous Estimates included such a variety of services, from national education to public works, which had no relation to each other, that they could not be explained in a single speech. At the same time, he would take that opportunity of calling attention to the generally satisfactory state of the Civil Service Estimates. They showed a reduction upon almost every branch. Although on particular items there had been some increase as compared with last year, more particularly with respect to the Votes for law and justice and prisons. But notwithstanding that the Civil Service Estimates, on the whole, showed a reduction of £180,000 as compared with last year, which also showed a considerable reduction as compared with the previous year, there was a reduction in the revenue Vote, although the number of persons employed and the salaries paid had a tendency to increase. With respect to the Packet Service Estimate there was a reduction of £80,000. After making due allowance for the increase in the Votes for public education, and the additions which 408 had been made to the Civil Service Estimates by transferring to them services which used formerly to be paid by other funds, it would be found that the increase in the Estimates was not three millions, as stated by the hon. Member for Truro, but merely some hundreds of thousands, which it would not be difficult to account for under all the circumstances of the case. With regard to the charges on the Consolidated Fund and the payments out of income of Woods and Forests, on which the hon. Member had asked for information, he would observe that an increase had taken place in two branches of the Consolidated Fund charges. There was an increase of about £40,000 in the miscellaneous advances, and that was to be accounted for in the following manner:—By the Act abolishing passing tolls the principal and interest of the debts due in respect to Whitby Harbour were charged on the Consolidated Fund. The interest on the debt was 4 per cent, and a saving of £300 a year was effected by paying off the principal. The amount paid for the extinguishment of that debt was the cause of the increase in the miscellaneous payments out of the Consolidated Fund. Under the Customs Consolidated Act of 1854 the whole of the customs revenue of the Isle of Man, amounting to £27,000, was annually paid into the Exchequer. The Treasury was bound to pay the ordinary civil expenses of the island, and to give one-ninth of the customs revenue of the island for the construction of new harbours, and for purposes connected with public works. The public works were not undertaken until last year, and for the purpose of carrying them on, the whole of the accumulated charge on account of the one-ninth of the customs revenue of the island, amounting to £27,000 in all, was required. The sum was paid, and that explained how that particular increase had taken place. The payments out of the income of the Department of Woods and Forests were strictly in accordance with the Act of Parliament, which was based upon a sort of compact by which the Crown, in return for a Civil List, surrendered its land revenues during the lifetime of the Sovereign; and he did not think that, consistently with the observance of that compact, any fundamental change could be introduced into the mode in which those revenues were administered. The payments might appear to be large, but they went towards the improvement of the 409 estates, and in most instances interest was charged upon the tenants of the properties where the improvements took place, and the consequence was that the income from the land revenues was continually increasing. The other questions which had been raised by the hon. Member for Truro referred to the details of the Votes, and he should therefore reserve any explanations which might be needed until the House had gone into Committee of Supply.
§ MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he would suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it would be a great convenience as well as a source of important information to the House if a Return were presented to the House, showing the amount of the Votes which remained unexpended at the end of every year.
§ MR. SCULLYsaid, he thought that the hon. Member for Truro had hardly been fairly treated. He had done good service by calling the attention of the House to these details, and if it had not been for him the House would have been dispersed. At one time there were only twenty Members in the House, there were six in the lobbies, six in the tea-room, six in the library, and thirty-nine in the dining-room, He did not blame those hon. Members for being out of the House, because they knew that if they had been present they could have done no good, that all the nibbling and cheeseparing in the world would never reduce the Estimates below the amount at which the Government chose to fix them. The late hon. Member for Montrose and the hon. Member for Lambeth, who at one time was called a "continuation of Hume," had gone through the same process that the hon. Member for Truro was now being subjected to, and the experience of that hon. Member had led him to confine his speech that evening to a period of only about two minutes. The people of Ireland were more interested in the matter than were those of England, because of all the taxation which was taken from Ireland none flowed back to that country, except the small amounts expended for English purposes, such as the payment of an English Lord Lieutenant, who could be made of no use here, and a Chief Secretary, who was the most mischievous man in the country. The only Irish purpose for which money was expended was the payment of the Judges. The stream of taxation was poured out to enrich England alone, and that was the reason why English Members were so indifferent to the enormous 410 taxation imposed on other parts of the kingdom.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that in reply to the hon. Member for Lambeth, he had to state that it would not be possible for him to undertake to present on an early day in each Session an account of the state of the unexpended balances in the Civil Service Estimates.
§ Motion agreed to.