§ SUPPLY considered in Committee.
§ (In the Committee.)
§ (1.) £1,275,316, Wages, to Artificers and others at Home.
§ Vote agreed to
§ SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY—Is the Vote passed? [The CHAIRMAN: Yes.] Why, there was a distinct declaration and promise on behalf of the Government that the Civil Lord of the Admiralty should make a full explanatory statement of the causes which had led to the large increase in this Vote. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stansfeld) rose to make that statement, but sat down again without doing it, and the Vote was passed. Why has not the statement been made according to promise?
MR. LINDSAYI move that the Chairman report Progress. Upon the Vote, which it appears has been passed with great hurry, the Government gave a distinct pledge that we should not be asked to grant a single penny until the Civil Lord of the Admiralty had fully explained the reasons of this great increase of £300,000 in the expenses of the home establishment. He was ready to do it, if I mistake sot— he had his papers in his hand—but for some reason or other he was told to sit down, and the Vote was hurried through. Is that the way in which the Committee of Supply is to be treated?
§ SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEI second that Motion. A more extraordinary proceeding I never saw. The Vote is put, and hey presto!—and before we know where we are—it is passed. The Committee is taken completely by surprise. We come down to hear the hon. Gentleman who has shone in this House as the champion of oppressed nationalities under a new character, and we are disappointed in this way. He promised us that on this Vote he would explain this huge volume, which is called a Labour Chart; and, though I have had some experience of charts, I should not like to sail my ship by it, for I understand from Gentlemen who have filled his position that it is based altogether on wrong principles, and will be found, in fact, to be a wreck chart. No doubt that is a convenient mode of proceeding for the Government to get out of promised explanations in this way; but I hope the Committee will not submit to it.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
THE CHAIRMANI should be sorry if, through any inadvertence of mine, any irregularity has occurred. I beg to say that there was nothing like hurry in passing the Vote. I put it in the usual way, paused on it to give any hon. Gentleman the opportunity of rising to speak upon it—and, as no one rose, passed it. I was not aware that the hon. Member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld) wished to make any statement upon it. If it is desired to reduce the Vote it must be re-committed; but if it is only desired that the hon. Member for Halifax shall make his statement, it is competent to him to do so on the Motion for reporting Progress.
§ SIR JOHN PAKINGTONIn answer to what has just fallen from the Chairman of Ways and Means, I am sure I only express the sense of the Committee when I say there is no inclination to attribute any blame to him. I do not think any one complains of him, for he only fulfilled his duty in putting the Vote which had been placed in his hands in the usual way. But what has occasioned surprise, and something more than surprise, was the rapidity with which the Vote was placed in the Chairman's hands. There certainly was an understanding on a former evening that, looking at the magnitude of this Vote, and its great importance, involving a very large expenditure in the dockyards—a branch of expenditure towards which it was generally understood the attention of the Civil Lord of the Admiralty had been specially directed during the recess—we should hear from him the results of his labours. We were all startled to find that, notwithstanding all his investigations, instead of being diminished by his economical views, the Vote had increased by £160,000, and we expected to hear some explanation upon it. As an illustration I may mention that, meeting a friend in the street, he said to me, "Do you think we shall get to Malta dockyard to-night," I said, "I very much doubt it, as it is generally understood the Civil Lord will speak for two hours on Vote 8," and I believe every hon. Member fully expected that, following the arrangement of a former evening, the Civil Lord was ready to give a full explanation of the Vote and of his labours during the recess.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERI was not fortunate enough to 1787 catch the Chairman's eye, or I might have spared the hon. Baronet the trouble of the remarks which he has just made. A miscarriage has occurred, and we have to see in what way it can best be overcome. Of course, the object of the Government is to place the Committee in the same position as if the mistake had not occurred. There must be some inconvenience, but, in order substantially to prevent the liberty of discussion being fettered, we are ready to give a promise that the Vote which has passed prematurely and inadvertently shall be recommitted, so that the House may have the same opportunity of considering it as if it had never been proposed. There is one thing in the way. It cannot be recommitted to-night. The only mode is to report the Vote, and then re-commit it, and we cannot report it the same night as it is passed. If it suit the views of the Committee, as the next Vote refers to the same subject-matter, my hon. Friend will make his statement upon that, and the discussion can then be taken on his statement. As far as voting is concerned on the Vote which is passed, there will be an opportunity on the next evening of Supply to deal with the items as the Committee please. I wish the forms of the House would permit a more convenient course, but in substance this arrangement will permit full liberty of discussing and voting on Vote 8.
§ MR. BRIGHTIt seems to me the plan is not a very good one of discussing one night and voting on the subjects of discussion on another night. This is not exactly what I call a miscarriage. It appears to me to have very much the appearance of a trick. I do not know who is guilty of it. I do not think the hon. Member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld) acted upon his own mere Motion. I was attending to what passed at the table, and so was my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, who takes a most intense interest in the Vote, and yet this million of money slipped through without our knowing it. The hon. Member for Halifax, it is notorious, had intimated his intention of making a speech on the Vote; but, on rising, he was told to sit down. There appears to me something in what has occurred very insulting to the House, and very unfair; and, although it is difficult to provide a remedy, we ought not to allow such a thing to be done with impunity. The very last tiling which anybody connected with the Government should endeavour to do is to 1788 take advantage of the House and the Committee upon a question of money and upon a Vote of this magnitude. I think the proper course to be to report Progress, so that we may have the discussion and the Vote on the same evening.
MR. LINDSAYIf we report Progress now, we shall be brought into the exact position we were in when this Vote 8 was taken. I cannot withdraw my Motion.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERThe hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) has made use of expressions which I do not quite see how he can justify. He said something about something having been done insulting to the House, and bearing the appearance of a trick. What is insulting to the House and bears the appearance of a trick must proceed from some person. A mistake has happened. It is not an insult to the House, and it is not a trick. The hon. Member for Birmingham should not use such terms unless he is prepared to indicate the person who has been guilty of that insult or that trick. The matter was done within the view and hearing of many hon. Gentlemen. My desire was to save the time of the Committee, and not to lose entirely the discussion to-night, hut we will cheerfully be bound by what is thought to be the convenience of the Committee. If, in consequence of this miscarriage, the hon. Member for Sunderland, the right hon. Baronet, and others, are desirous that Vote 8 shall not be discussed to-night, we will not proceed further with the Navy Estimates. But we cannot accede to the Motion to report Progress. There are two supplemental Votes—one for the probable deficiencies of the grants for army services, and the other for the Scheldt tolls, with which it is really necessary to proceed, because, if we do not pass those Votes tonight, the House must sit on days when it does not intend to sit, in order to get the Appropriation Bill before the Recess. We ought to proceed with the Supplemental Estimates, and therefore it will be our duty to take the sense of the Committee on the Motion to report Progress.
§ SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYI think that this matter has arisen from an unintentional error of the hon. Member for Halifax. His mistake was in putting the Vote into the hands of the Chairman before making his statement. The correct course would have been to make his statement first.
MR. LINDSAYI am entirely in the 1789 hands of the Committee, I do not wish to stop the Supplemental Votes. As long as no Votes in the Navy Estimates are taken to-night, so that we may be placed in the same position as when the Chairman took the chair, I shall be satisfied, and will not press my Motion.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ MR. BRIGHTI beg the Chancellor of the Exchequer to understand that he was not in my eye when I thought something unfair to the House had been done. I know he is not capable of it. If anyone else was, I hope he regrets it.
§ LORD CLARENCE PAGETAs the hon. Member exonerates the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he must inculpate either the hon. Member for Halifax or myself. I am perfectly certain my hon. Friend had no intention to deceive the House. He got up to make his statement, and when he found that the Vote had been put and decided, he sat down.
SIR FREDERIC SMITHI must complain of what has occurred, as when it came on, I was prepared to bring forward the case of the Joiners. I hope the Government will afford an opportunity on another occasion for a discussion on the subject.