HC Deb 20 June 1864 vol 175 cc2029-35
MR. DISRAELI

Sir, I wish to make an inquiry of Her Majesty's Government in regard to circumstances connected with the Conference. In the first place I wish to ask the Government, Whether they can give the House any information respecting a statement, believed to be perfectly authentic, on the part of the Prussian Minister, at the last meeting of the Conference? He is alleged to have stated that in case the German ports were blockaded, the German Powers would no longer consider themselves bound by the Convention of Paris in regard to privateering. I wish in the second place to learn from Her Majesty's Government whether, in case of the Conference breaking up its proceedings on Wednesday, we are to understand that hostilities will commence on the 26th? The third question is, whether if the Conference concludes, under any circumstances, its business next Wednesday, we may understand from the Government that the protocols will be placed immediately on the table of this House?

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

Sir, I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that as the Questions are of considerable importance, it would be better if he would put them on the paper. An answer will then be given to them to-morrow.

MR. DISRAELI

Sir, I do not think that these are Questions which it is at all necessary to place on the paper. I consider that I am perfectly justified, in the present state of affairs, in putting these Questions to Her Majesty's Government without a formal notice.

MR. BERNAL OSBORNE

Although I fully see the inconvenience of provoking any discussion at this moment, yet, recollecting as I do the way in which we drifted into war with Russia, and feeling the urgency of this occasion, and the very perilous precipice upon which the country stands at the present moment—I wish to ask some Member of the Government, if the noble Lord is not in his place to-night, what significance we are to attach to certain words uttered in another place, to the effect that Her Majesty's fleet is fully prepared for any service which it may be called upon to render. These words are so serious, and the peace of this country is so imperilled at this moment, that I take the first opportunity in the interests of peace of asking Her Majesty's Government what significance they place on those words—whether it is one of those idle threats which have lately been too much used in another place; or whether it is a bonâ fide intention to commit the suicidal act of plunging this country into a war with Germany? ["Oh!"] Hon. Gentlemen may not agree with me in thinking this to be a suicidal act, but at all events they will agree with me, that if this country is to be plunged into a war we ought to have definite and certain information, so that we shall not drift day by day into a state of things which may involve this country into a war, the end of which no man can foresee. I, therefore, hope the House will support me in this demand, and that they will insist upon knowing what is the significance of the terms that have been used in another place.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

Sir, I was not aware the adjournment of the House had been moved. I am very sorry that inconvenience should arise either to the right hon. Gentleman or to others with respect to the circum- stances in which we stand. But no intimation was given to me, or, as far as I am aware, to any other Member of the Government, of the right hon. Gentleman's Questions, until the moment when they were put, and I must confess it appears to me that it would be greatly for the convenience and advantage of the House if notice were given before such Questions were put. At any rate, it so happens that these Questions have been asked in the absence of my noble Friend at the head of the Government. I have had no communication with him on the subject, and it rests with him to represent the Government in this House upon matters of this great importance. In my opinion I should altogether have departed from my duty if I had answered the Questions put to me in any other way than by respectfully recommending, as I did, that notice of them should be given for to-morrow.

MR. SEYMOUR FITZGERALD

Sir, I fully admit that it is for the convenience of the House that ordinarily notice should be given of important questions. But there are times—emergencies—there are occasions of so serious a character as to justify Gentlemen sitting on this side of the House in insisting, as far as they can, on having a definite answer from the Government as to their intentions in a crisis such as this. It is not, Sir, as if every member of the Cabinet was not in full possession of the circumstances of the case. Every member of the Cabinet must be aware of what passed on Saturday, and there is not a member of the Cabinet sitting on that Bench who is not capable of giving an answer to the Questions of my right hon. Friend. I trust that the House will insist on having a definite answer.

After a pause,

MR. DARBY GRIFFITH

It appears that on this serious Question the Government is not in a position to give an answer; they are here without their head; they are a corpus entirely deprived of that which would give them any vitality. The right hon. Gentleman must be aware that he is speaking for a divided Government on this subject. I venture to say that no one hon. Member of the Government will deny that assertion. I apprehend that all our information is derived from the ordinary public means, which, whilst they give us information coming from abroad of what transpires here, also inform us of the divided state of the Government. I hope the words referred to by the hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. Bernal Osborne) will have the vitality and force he attributed to them. I trust they are words of power, and that in a few days we shall have a Government that will intimate to the despotic powers of the Continent who are now oppressing a weaker nation, that we have a mind of our own in England, and are not prepared to see the just influence of this country in abeyance on a subject in which we have taken so great a part, and our recommendations thrown back in our faces with insult and contumely. It is certain if we put forth our right arm—the naval strength of the country—in a manner suited to the dignity of the nation, we should soon see the objects for which the Conference was commenced satisfactorily accomplished.

LORD JOHN MANNERS

Sir, I think the speech of the hon. Member for Liskeard must have shown Her Majesty's Government that the interest felt in this subject is not confined to this side of the House. I am sure that when these few observations are read by the country to-morrow, people will feel and will probably express a deep sense of the position in which the House of Commons is placed by the refusal of information on the part of Her Majesty's Government upon those questions which excite the country from one end to the other. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer has stated, that in the absence of the noble Lord and of notice of the intention to ask these Questions, it is impossible for him or any other Member of the Government to reply to them. But, Sir, I think that on the eve of such important and momentous events, if it be true that there is no Member of Her Majesty's Government competent or willing to reply to Questions of this importance except the noble Lord himself, then it is the duty of that noble Lord to be here in his place. [Viscount PALMERSTON at this moment entered the House.] I rejoice to see that the noble Lord has taken his seat. I trust he will be able and willing to give that information which hitherto has been asked in vain from Her Majesty's Government. Probably the noble Lord will be informed by one of his Colleagues who sits next him what the information sought for is. [Sir GEORGE GREY: Repeat the Questions.] Well, then, I will repeat them, and I ask—first, Whether Her Majesty's Government can give the House any information with respect to the declaration alleged to have been made at the Conference on Saturday by the representative of Prussia, that in the event of the blockade of the German ports being in their opinion inefficiently carried out, Prussia would depart from the stipulations on the subject of privateering contained in the Treaty of Paris? secondly, Whether in the opinion of Her Majesty's Government, if the Conference should terminate its labours unfavourably on Wednesday, the resumption of hostilities on Monday next may be expected? and thirdly, Whether, in the event of the Conference terminating on Wednesday, under any circumstances, the Protocols containing the proceedings of the Conference will be immediately placed on the table of this House?

MR. BERNAL OSBORNE

I hope the noble Viscount will also give an explanation as to the significance of the words used by the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary, in another place, that the fleet was prepared to go anywhere. Were those words used in a warlike sense?

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

My noble Friend was asked a Question, whether the British fleet is in a condition to do anything that might be required of it? [Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE: The question was, whether it is prepared to go to the Baltic?] Well, the Baltic or anywhere else. My noble Friend's answer was, in the words of the Duke of Wellington about his army, that the fleet is prepared to go anywhere and do anything, ["Oh, oh!"] I think the British fleet is perfectly capable of performing any service. I do not think that indicates any particular service. I say generally, whatever contingency may happen, the British fleet, I am persuaded, will be found prepared. With regard to the Questions put by the right hon. Gentleman, and repeated by the noble Lord, I would rather decline to state what passed at the Conference held on Saturday or any other day. There was an agreement that what passed at the Conference should not be made public. I am sorry to say that many reports have got abroad as to what has passed between the Ministers at the Conference; but I am sure the House will see that a statement made in breach of confidence, whoever may have committed that breach, is a very different thing from a statement made by the Minister of the Crown in this House, which carries with it authenticity, and which might give rise to discussions which certainly ought to be avoided. With regard to the next Question, whether hostilities would be resumed on Monday next in the event of the Conference not terminating favourably on Wednesday next, I can only say how matters now stand. The suspension of hostilities expires, I think, on Sunday, and if there is no other agreement made before that time, if the belligerent parties should not have agreed to some arrangements calculated to restore peace, or should not happen to have come to any understanding as to boundaries, and the suspension should not be renewed, a state of hostilities will of course commence when the suspension expires. With regard to the third Question, I have to say that whenever the negotiations are over it will no doubt be the duty of Her Majesty's Government to lay the proceedings of the Conference before Parliament, and no delay that can be avoided will possibly take place. Probably a day or a couple of days may intervene before that can be done.

MR. BRIGHT

Perhaps the noble Viscount is not able to give the House an assurance at present that the armistice will be prolonged. I know it would be desirable to give all the information that could possibly be given, because it is obvious that there must be a great feeling of interest in the country on the subject. I do not credit hon. Gentlemen opposite with a greater desire for peace than Her Majesty's Government. But the country has a great interest in knowing what the Government may be able fairly to tell us. I have never asked a question on the subject before, nor do I now. But though there may be good guesses or bad guesses as to what a certain plenipotentiary has done, it is clearly not the duty of the Minister, however great the anxiety may be, to divulge facts, which as a Minister represented in tie Conference he is pledged to keep secret. But I think the noble Viscount would get on more easily if he should tell the House all he can, and I should be most happy if he should be able to tell us anything tending to show that peace is likely to come from the negotiations which have been carried on now for some weeks past

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

There is, no doubt, a great anxiety in the country for the continued preservation of peace, and I am quite aware that this House must feel a strong desire to know everything that can be properly communicated with regard to the negotiations. I very much regret that my tongue is tied, and therefore I can only repeat the assurance that Her Majesty's Government are labouring incessantly to bring the belligerent parties to an agreement, and if we fail to accomplish that end, I trust that we shall be able to show that it was not our fault.