§ MR. COXSeeing the hon. Gentleman the Member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld) in his place, I wish to put a Question to him. I beg to ask, Whether his attention has been called to what is stated to have taken place at Paris upon the trial of Greco and his accomplices, and to what fell from the Crown Prosecutor on that occasion. The Crown Prosecutor is reported to have used these words—
He (Greco) was to write to that address in London if he was in want of money. It is as follows: — 'Mr. Flower, 35, Thurloe Square, Brompton.' I searched the London Directory. At page 670 I found what I was looking for, and it was not without sadness that I recognized the name of a Member of Parliament of England, who already had been in 1857 appointed to be the banker of the Tebaldi conspiracy against the Emperor's life.I also have searched the London Directory, and I found that the hon. Member for Halifax lives at that address. I therefore desire to know, whether the hon. Gentleman's attention has been called to this paragraph?
§ MR. STANSFELDI am much indebted to the hon. Member for Finsbury for having enabled me to answer at once the question, of which he gave me notice at an early period of the evening. My attention was directed this morning to the speech of the Procureur Général, from which my hon. Friend has read an extract, and I must say that the astonishment with which I read the speech was mingled with somewhat of a stronger feeling. For the Crown Prosecutor of a friendly Power in the first place to imagine, and in the second place to venture to insinuate, that one who has the honour of a seat in the British House of Commons, and who, however unworthily, happens to occupy the position of a Minister of the Crown—that he should directly or indirectly have ever participated, or even have been conscious of any supposed implication, in attempts which, if serious, must excite the execration of mankind—I say such a statement is more than I can understand, and I confess I read his speech with feelings not only of astonishment, but also of indignation. Sir, I trust it is quite unnecessary—in fact I should feel it, I may say, an indignity should I be called upon—to plead to an indictment like this, and to declare in this House that I share the feelings of all decent men with regard to attempts of this kind, about 1256 which there can be but one opinion. But if there be to my mind some sort of satisfaction in connection with the indignity of such a suspicion it is this, that it gives me the opportunity upon this occasion and from this place to hear my testimony to the character of a man whom all who know me know I have known for some eighteen years, and than whom I have never known, I have never heard or read of, any man who has been more cruelly and more shamefully maligned. I speak, as I have said, from a definite personal knowledge of nearly eighteen years, and I have yet to learn that that knowledge and the convictions which it produces will not have some effect upon the mind of this House and of the public. I say that M. Mazzini, whose name has been associated with this attempt—I pledge my personal knowledge of him for the conviction, that he is absolutely incapable of being concerned in it. And, Sir, I will go further. It is impossible that I could have read the extract which my hon. Friend has given to the House without having occupied the time which intervened since then in making some inquiries, and ascertaining how it was possible that such insinuations should have been uttered. I have made inquiries, and I am satisfied in my own mind—I will not anticipate declarations which it is the right of others to make in this case—but I have satisfied my own mind that if the case should come to be fairly tried, the answer to it will be complete and satisfactory in every respect.
§ MR. HENNESSYSir, I think it somewhat unfortunate, looking to the fact that the hon.Gentleman—["Order, order!"]— Sir, to put myself in order I shall conclude with a Motion. The House, Sir, must feel that the hon. Gentleman was entitled to the fullest latitude in all that he could say in reference to himself; but I will venture to say that the hon. Gentleman has introduced other topics not strictly personal to himself, and which should on this occasion not have come before the House, but which, if they do come before the House, it is important should come in their true colours. Referring to Mazzini, I wish at once to say—what is the opinion of several hon. Members of this House— that it is unfortunate that the character of Mazzini and his proceedings should have been brought before us in this way, with a studied eulogium, but without notice, at a time when no one expected it, and at a time, too, when the language used by 1257 Mazzini himself must convince all who read it that grave suspicion attaches to him. For what did Mazzini write within the last few weeks? A certain criminal named Greco is arrested in France, along with other persons, for a conspiracy against the life of the Emperor of the French, and Mazzini subsequently writes to The Times and other newspapers to say "Greco is an enthusiastic patriot," and admits that he was in personal communication with Greco last year. Greco pleads guilty. I put it to the House—is Greco an enthusiastic patriot? What is the theory of those who believe that Greco and his accomplices were all induced by the French police to come forward to accuse Mazzini? They allege that he is a spy and a miscreant of the lowest order. [Hear.] The hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. White) says "hear," and yet M. Mazzini calls him "an enthusiastic patriot." I will not now enter upon the question, which has not been denied by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stansfeld), that M. Mazzini lived at the address designated by the writer of the letter to Greco, that he did write letters and receive letters there, and that money was called for at the address that had been given.
§ MR. STANSFELDI beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon—
§ MR. HENNESSYThese are facts, as an hon. Member reminds me, that are not denied, and they are most material to people of this country. Money was collected and letters received under a false name. Why? Why use a false name? These things are matters of interest to us, who are here the representatives of a country, I am happy to say, in friendly alliance with France. But, if attempts such as have lately taken place are made, what must be thought by the people and the Sovereign of France? I understand that it has been said by the friends of these parties that Mazzini never engaged in any attempt to murder the Emperor of the French, but that his only object is to keep the Emperor in terror. Even assuming for a moment that absurd and improbable defence to be true, does any one think that it is a defence which the people of this country will tolerate? Mazzini may assert that the cause he has at heart may be served by keeping the Emperor of the French in terror; but his avowed policy indicates a far more serious result, and he renders himself responsible for the acts of his subordinate associates; and I venture to think, that in this House 1258 and in this country, his conduct will meet with universal reprobation. The hon. Member then, pro formâ, moved that the House do now adjourn.
§ MR. COXI rise to second the Motion; and perhaps I may be permitted to say I hardly expected my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax would, in answering my question, have gone into a defence of M. Mazzini. What I desired to hear from my hon. Friend was some explanation of the charge publicly made against him. He used expressions that were perfectly justified by the occasion of the horror and disgust which he and every Gentleman in this House must feel at being charged as an accomplice in such an attempt as this. But he did not give me, or give the House, any explanation as to this Mr. Flower who resides at No. 35, Thurloe Square, Brompton—which is the result of a search in the London Directory by the French Procureur; but I, too, have searched the London Directory, and I there find that 35, Thurloe Square, is now the residence of my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld). I rise now to second this Motion for the purpose of giving him an opportunity of explaining that which seems to have been quite forgotten, and I am sure he will be able to give a most satisfactory reply.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."
§ Mr. STANSFELDI hardly understood that my hon. Friend was desirous of any explanation from me on the specific point to which he has referred. He has searched the Directory, and he has been enabled to ascertain a fact that was easily ascertainable—namely, my address. My address is 35, Thurloe Square. As to a letter stated to have been addressed to Mr. Flower, I understand my hon. Friend wishes to know if I have any knowledge of that letter. Now I have already stated in general terms—general because I wished them to apply to one and all of the accusations—that I never have had—it seems almost too great an indignity to have to answer such a question. I have not, and never have had, the slightest knowledge of proceedings of that character; and I will add, for I think I am entitled to add, that I have not the belief in them that some hon. Gentlemen have. I have been blamed by the hon. and learned Member for the King's County (Mr. Hennessy) for having taken the opportunity of defending the 1259 character of M. Mazzini. I had full reasons for that course—the one is that my name has been implicated in transactions that affect his character; and I think I am entitled—I think I should be shrinking from the duties of private friendship—if I had not taken this opportunity of testifying, what I will say is not only my conviction but my knowledge, of his character. Now what is the question?
§ MR. HENNESSYWho is Flower? I ask whether in truth this Mr. Flower is M. Mazzini?
§ MR. STANSFELDI can have no knowledge. I know nothing about this Mr. Flower. Did not the hon. Gentleman put a question as to collection of money? —if so, will he repeat it?
§ MR. HENNESSYI ask the hon. Gentleman, whether he at any time acted as treasurer or as an agent of a committee for the collection of any money to be distributed among the Italian patriots? [Cries of" Oh, Oh! Don't answer him!"]
§ MR. STANSFELDI will then give my answer to the House. Certainly not —No!
§ LORD CLAUD HAMILTONI should like to know from the hon. Member for Halifax whether a Mr. Fiore is not his intimate acquaintance, and has not been at his house, and whether that person is not the secretary of Mazzini. [Cries of "Oh!"]
§ MR. W. E. FORSTERI do not rise to carry on this discussion, but I think that when it is read to-morrow it will appear as though it is an attempt to get information for the French Procureur Imperials. I am quite sure my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax has answered all the questions that have been put to him which in any way effect himself in a manner that will be quite satisfactory to the country. I merely rise for the purpose of saying that the hon. and learned Member for King's County (Mr. Hennessy) in alluding to M. Mazzini, stated, as though it were an acknowledged fact, and admitted by Mazzini, that although he did not enter into plots for the purpose of assassinating the Emperor of the French, he did so for the purpose of terrifying him. Now, perhaps the hon. Gentleman, as he cannot do so himself, will get a friend to state the reason for his. making that statement. I do not believe that Mazzini ever made that assertion. I have very little knowledge of 'M. Mazzini, but from what I do know of him I would take his denial as being true; and my belief is that he has had nothing 1260 to do with any such plots for any purpose whatever.
§ MR. ALDERMAN ROSEI think the question which the House would like to have answered is this—Has Mazzini ever lived with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Halifax? [Cries of "Oh, Oh!" and "Don't answer!"] It is right that the House should have that question answered. I am quite sure that it is supposed that it is a fact that he either lodged there or was living some time in the same house. Will the hon. Gentleman answer that question? [Cries of "Don't answer!"]
§ MR. W. WILLIAMSmade some observations on the inconvenience of bringing questions of this kind before the House, irregularly and without notice.