§ MR. BERNAL OSBORNESir, I protest against the Chair being vacated in this way. It is a gross breach of the common courtesy due to the House. My hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Sir Harry Verney) got up to address the House and yet Mr. Speaker left the Chair. In all the course of my Parliamentary experience, I never saw anything like that clone before. I put it to the House if this can be permitted. It appears to me that we are to be treated like the Conference, and be adjourned sine die, I move that the Chairman report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYI think that any observation of this kind ought to be made when the Speaker is in the Chair.
§ MR. BERNAL OSBORNEWhy, the Speaker ran away!
§ SIR GEORGE GREYI heard the Speaker put the Question. The Motion which the hon. Member has made I had already made, for I had moved that you, Sir, report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
§ SIR HARRY VERNEYAs soon as the last speaker had finished his address, I rose, and before the Speaker left the Chair I got up and addressed him.
§ MR. AYRTONI think it very inconvenient to report Progress; the proceedings which have taken place must be reversed. There is no doubt that the hon. Baronet was on his legs when the Question 1958 was put. There can be no doubt that any erroneous proceeding can be reversed.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYThe proceedings cannot be reversed. The course will be for the hon. Member now in the Chair to leave the Chair.
§ MR. AYRTONI beg your pardon; we can request the Speaker to return.
§ LORD ROBERT MONTAGUsaid, he could answer for it that the Speaker had put the Question and said, the "Ayes have it." The hon. Member for Buckingham then rose, and the Speaker said he had already put the Question.
§ Motion agreed to.
§ House resumed.
§ Committee report Progress; to sit again on Monday next.
§ SIR HARRY VERNEYSir, I move the adjournment of the House.
§ MR. SPEAKERThe hon. Baronet can address the House on a Question of order without moving the adjournment.
§ SIR HARRY VERNEYSir, I wish to address you on a point of order. I beg to state that the name of a Member (Mr. Black) was on the paper before mine. I waited, expecting his name to be called. I thought I had risen to address you before you left the Chair. If you say otherwise, I bow to your decision, but I hope that I may be allowed to proceed with my Motion.
§ MR. BERNAL OSBORNEI second the Motion for adjournment. ["Order, order!"] I maintain that this is a Question affecting the privileges of this House; and, without making any pointed allusion to you, I must say that I did not hear you, Sir, put the Question. A noble Lord on the other side (Lord R. Montagu) said he did hear it; but he was sitting in close proximity to the Chair. I was not favoured with that private and confidential communication. My hon. Friend below me rose before you left the Chair. [Cries of No!"] We on this bench are certainly gifted with eyes and ears as well as the more favoured; inhabitants of that lower region, and I say the hon. Member rose before you left the Chair. If you put the Question, it was I put so indistinctly and so hurriedly that no Member on this bench heard it; but I maintain it, contrary to the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, that we did not hear the Question. I cannot help, thinking that independent Members are hardly treated, and in their name I protest against this sharp practice.
§ MR. HUMBERSTONSir, it so happened that when the Question was put I was standing behind the chair of the Sergeant at Arms; and it seemed to me that that Gentleman rose to advance towards the mace before the hon. Baronet rose from his seat.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that his hon. Friend (Mr. Black) had given notice of his intention to move an Amendment on going into Supply, and his hon. Friend (Sir Harry Verney) had evidently waited for the hon. Member for Edinburgh to be called upon. But the right hon. Gentleman had not called upon the hon. Member for Edinburgh, nor was it necessary or usual for him to do so. For himself, he must say that he distinctly heard the Question put, and he believed that the right hon. Gentleman left the Chair before the hon. Baronet rose. What had occurred was explained by the fact that his hon. Friend (Sir Harry Verney) had waited for the hon. Member for Edinburgh, who was before him, and who did not rise. He thought that no blame whatever attached to the Speaker, whose conduct was always marked by the most perfect impartiality.
§ MR. CARNEGIESir, I was farther off than the hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. Osborne); and though I do not deny that the hon. Member has eyes and ears, I also claim the privilege to have eyes and ears, and I think it is only due to you, Sir, to state that I heard you put the Question before the hon. Member rose.
§ MR. DILLWYNAs it is a matter of evidence in some respect, I may give the evidence of my senses. I was sitting here very near my hon. Friend the Member for Liskeard, and I did not hear the Question put by the Chair. I can confidently assert that my hon. Friend rose before the Speaker left the Chair, because when my hon. Friend rose I could not see the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair for my hon. Friend.
§ MR. AYRTONsaid, he had heard the Question put, but he did not hear it carried. He heard the Ayes but not the Noes. He suggested that there might be some confusion as to what was meant by putting the Question. He had very clearly heard the Speaker put the Question, "That I do now leave the Chair." At that moment the hon. Baronet rose. He did not hear the rest of the Question put, "You that are of that opinion say aye, &c." In his opinion the hon. Baronet had risen before the complete form had been gone through.
§ MR. WYKEHAM MARTINsaid, he had distinctly heard the whole of the Question.
§ LORD ROBERT MONTAGUI heard the Question, and if those hon. Gentlemen opposite did not hear it, perhaps that is due to the somniferous state into which they had been brought by the speeches which had been previously made.
§ MR. SPEAKERI am sorry that any misunderstanding or misapprehension should have arisen on the part of any hon. Members as to the course that was pursued. At the same time, I cannot admit for a moment that there was anything in that course which was not strictly in accordance with the exact rules of the House. With no hurry, I rose and put the Question that I should leave the Chair. No hon. Gentleman rose, and I declared the Question carried. I can now understand why the hon. Baronet the Member for Buckingham did not rise—because he says he thought I should call on the Gentleman who stood before him on the list. Now, the House is aware that unless an hon. Member rises to move an Amendment I do not call upon him. If any Gentleman wishes to move an Amendment it is for him to rise, and then I call upon him to proceed. On this occasion I put the Question, "That I do now leave the Chair." No one rose, and I then said, "As many as are of that opinion say aye; of the contrary opinion, no; I think the ayes have it." I then turned to leave the Chair, and the hon. Member for Buckingham rose in his place. It is perfectly true that the hon. Member rose in his place before I left the Chair, but not before I put the Question. That is an exact statement of the case, and I regret that any hon. Member who was paying any attention to the business of the House should have arrived at a different conclusion.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, the hon. and learned Member had a right to speak on the point of order.
§ MR. BERNAL OSBORNEdeclared that his learned Friend was in order.
MR. KINGLAKEsaid, that as he was sitting in exactly the same latitude as his hon. Friend (Sir Harry Verney), he could judge what it was possible for him to hear. In the state of the House at the moment a whisper almost might have been heard in the distance, and yet he had not heard the Question put in such 1961 a manner that it would have been possible for him to say "No" to the Question that the Speaker do leave the Chair.