HC Deb 14 May 1863 vol 170 cc1731-4

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 1 (Bishop of Welsh Dioceses may licence Chapel for Performance of Divine Service in English, and nominate minister thereto).

MR. HUNT

said, he would move an Amendment to the effect that of ten or more English residents, on whose application the bishop might licence services in the English language, three should be householders.

MR. WALPOLE

said, he feared that the Amendment would diminish the efficiency of the measure.

MR. H. A. BRUCE

said, he objected to the introduction of the term "householders" in conjunction with "English residents," as likely to prove too restrictive.

MR. PULLER

suggested that the word "inhabitants" should be inserted instead of "English residents."

SIR JOHN HANMER

said, he could not agree to that alteration, because casual visitors might not be included under the term "inhabitants." He trusted the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge University would keep the Bill as it stood, so that the bishop might control the whole matter.

MR. GATHONRE HARDY

said, he thought the word "inhabitants" was the best which could be put into the Bill. He did not agree with the hon. Gentleman who had spoken last in thinking that the whole matter should be left to the bishop. A little was due to the incumbent, who, so long as he was ready to satisfy the wants of his parish, should not he interfered with. He hoped the Committee would adopt the words "ten or more inhabitants," of whom a certain number were householders.

MR. E. P. BOUVERIE

said, the Act of Uniformity required that in Wales the Church services should be celebrated in the Welsh language. Now, many residents in Wales could not speak the language of the country, and surely nothing could be more reasonable than to allow them to bear the services in their own tongue. The condition contained in a subsequent clause of the Bill, that the persons anxious to have the English services celebrated should be liable to build a place of worship, and to provide a minister, appeared amply sufficient for all practical purposes.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. HUNT

said, he would then move the insertion, after "inhabitants," of the words "of whom three shall be householders."

Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 15, after the word "inhabitants," to insert the words "of whom three shall be householders."

MR. AYRTON

said, he objected to the Amendment. A man who was a lodger surely had as much right to religious ministrations as a householder. The practice of associating the Church and its offices with property and position was most injurious.

Question put, "That those words he there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 31; Noes 45: Majority 14.

MR. H. A. BRUCE

said, that the incumbent was to appoint a spiritual person to officiate, and after the persons requiring his services had guaranteed the payment of the expenses the incumbent might appoint a person that was distasteful to them. He therefore, to prevent such an occurrence, proposed the omission of certain words. Should the incumbent appoint an unfit person there would be no guarantee, if the Amendment were adopted, to pay the expenses.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. PULLER

said, he would propose the omission, after the word "inhabitants," of the words "or those who commonly use the English language." As many Welshmen spoke both languages, it might be difficult to determine which they "commonly used."

MR. LYGOX

said, he hoped that these words would he retained, as the whole Bill rested upon them.

MR. WALPOLE

said, he thought it better to leave out the words. They would fetter the discretion of the bishop too much.

Amendment negatived.

MR. LYGON

said, he would propone, in line 17. after "Wales," to insert "in which the ordinary parochial services are in the Welsh tongue."

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

suggested that the word "ordinary" in the Amendment should be left out, and the word "only" added. The Bill, he understood, was intended to remedy a very extreme case, without running the risk of disturbing the parochial system generally, and the position of those incumbents who were in the most exemplary manner labouring to do everything they could for the spiritual provision of their parishes.

MR. WALPOLE

said, he thought the word "ordinary" should be retained in the Amendment.

MR. NEWDEGATE

said, he could not see what claim a set of casual visitors to a Welsh watering-place had to more than one English service a day.

COLONEL PENNANT

said, there was a large and increasing number of English residents in Wales, and it was thought that they ought not to be at the mercy of the incumbent, but that there should be an appeal to the bishop in case of need.

MR. C. W. WYNN

said, the only thing that was asked was that buildings should be licensed in which ministers paid by those who required their services should officiate. It was not intended that the incumbent of a parish in which such building should he licensed should be at all responsible, either legally or morally, for the provision of such services, and neither was it intended in any way to interfere with his parochial authority. The clauses of the Bill were all framed so as to recognise and maintain unimpaired that authority, and all the incumbents with whom he had been in communication approved the Bill.

MR. E. P. BOUVERIE

said, he objected to the Amendment as it was originally proposed. The Act of Uniformity required that in districts such as those referred to, the service should be in the Welsh tongue.

THE SOLICITOR OENERAL

ob- served, that the service was in Welsh only where the Welsh language was commonly used. He found nothing; in the Act of Uniformity to make the use of the English language illegal.

MR. WALPOLE

said, that the words as proposed to be inserted by the hon. Member (Mr. Lygon) were not the same as appeared on the paper, and, if adopted, would defeat the whole object of the Bill.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL

said be wished to point out that the Amendment might more properly be dealt with in another part of the clause.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

COLONEL PENNANT

said, he would move to insert in Clause 1, line 12, after the word "licence," the following words: — On the nomination by the incumbent of the said parish, district, or place, of a fit and proper person as minister to such chapel.

Amendment proposed, In page 2, line 12, after the word "licence," to insert the words "on the nomination by the incumbent of the said parish, district, or place of a fit and proper person as minister to such chapel.

Question put "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 32; Noes 31: Majority 1.

MR. H. H. VIVIAN

said, the effect of the Amendment which had been just carried, would be to make the Bill inoperative. He should therefore move to report progress.

House resumed.

Committee report Progress; to sit again on Wednesday 10th June.