SUPPLY—CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.

HC Deb 26 March 1863 vol 169 cc1952-70

SUPPLY considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

(1.) £1,953,000, on account of certain Civil Services.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, he objected to being called upon unexpectedly to vote so large a sum of money upon account before the whole of the Estimates were laid upon the table. He further objected to so doing when there were admitted to be considerable balances in hand. He wished for some explanation from the Secretary to the Treasury upon that point. In one class alone he understood there was no less a balance than £620,000; why should they vote more money than was absolutely wanted for any one branch?

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he regarded Votes on account as injurious to a proper supervision of expenditure; but as the balances of various Votes were paid into the Exchequer, his objection was not so Strong as it otherwise would have been.

MR. CHILDERS

said, the Committee might really be congratulated on the Vote, because it was owing to the adoption of the principle recommended by the Committee on Public Accounts which had been presided over by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Portsmouth (Sir Francis Baring)—namely, that of making the Estimates include not the sums required for the service of the year, but the sums that would actually become payable within the year. Under the old system, the balance of a Vote once taken was transferred from year to year till the whole was expended. That practice had been abolished, and the balances which remained in hand on the 31st of March were handed back to the Exchequer. With regard to the present Vote, it was taken on account of the Civil Service Estimates as a whole, not as instalment of each particular Vote. There would thus be no obstacle in the future discussion of the Estimates.

MR. PEEL

said, the Vote on account was rendered necessary by the change that was made in the last Session in the manner of voting the Civil Service Estimates. The sums voted last year were for payments falling due in 1862–3; therefore any payment falling due after the 31st of March could not, with a due respect to the provisions of the Appropriation Act, be made out of the sums voted during the last year. As to this Vote on account being suddenly presented to the House, he would only observe that it had always been stated that the change of form in which these Estimates were now presented would necessarily require a Vote on account to be taken. He trusted the Committee would agree to the Vote, for otherwise the new plan would certainly fail.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, he wished to know when the year began and ended? Were the payments for salaries due on March 31 made in 1862–3 or in 1863–4?

MR. PEEL

said, that payments which became due at the end of the quarter would be paid on the following day, and would form part of the amount to be voted by the Committee for the coming year.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, he thought it incomprehensible that the payments for the last quarter of one year should be made in the first quarter of the next year.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that a perfect system required, according to the idea of the hon. Gentleman, that all payments for the expiring year should be made while the clock was striking twelve on the night of the last day of the last quarter. Such a perfect system, however, was impossible, and the system pursued was to make all payments as speedily as possible after they became due. When payments became due upon the lapse of fixed periods, the payments could only be made when those terms had expired. In the case of the National Debt, the half-year did not terminate at the same time as the Government quarter. The difficulty, however, was more apparent than real, and was so incident to human affairs that he despaired of overcoming it.

SIR JOHN SHELLEY

said, that as a Member of the Select Committee he wished to thank the right hon. Gentleman for adopting their recommendations with respect to the public accounts. They appeared to work very satisfactorily.

Vote agreed to.

(2.) £574,154, Customs Department.

SIR HENRY W1LLOUGHBY

remarked that there was a slight increase in the Vote. From the remission of Customs duties which had taken place of late, one would have expected some reduction in the charges; but such was not' the fact. In 1861–2 and in 1862–3 the Vote was identical with the present; but in the year 1861–2 the expenditure was £731,625 only, or £22,525 less than the Vote. For what was the £754,154 wanted, if £731,625 was sufficient that year? Probably, the right hon. Secretary to the Treasury could give some explanations on the point.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, that a reduction of upwards of £82,000 in the Vote had been promised. Instead of that, he found there had been an increase.

MR. PEEL

said, that if the hon. Gentleman would compare the amount of the Vote with that at which it stood some years ago, he would find that since the changes which had taken place in this Department a reduction in the Vote to a considerable extent had taken place. The principal reduction then made was in the number of examining officers; but the great increase of business which had since taken place had rendered a corresponding increase necessary in the Vote. It would also be observed that the salaries had a minimum and maximum, amount. It was probable, that when the large official changes took place some years ago, many of the officers entered at the minumum salaries which had since been increasing, and thus the Vote had become enlarged in amount. A Committee upstairs was, however, making inquiries into the Government establishments in all the ports of the country. Of course, any recommendation which that Committee might make would be duly attended to, but at that moment it had not reported.

Vote agreed to.

(3.) £1,351,771, Inland Revenue Department.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

said, that under this head also, as compared with the actual expenditure of 1861–2, the present Estimate showed an increase of £57,569.

MR. PEEL

said, there was a reduction, as compared with the Estimate of last year, amounting to £30,000. He could only account for the difference mentioned by the hon. Baronet by supposing that in 1861–2 there were some offices vacant or salaries not drawn.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

said, it was remarkable that these salaries always crept up and never crept down.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, that they wanted to know not so much what past Estimates had been, as the actual expenditure in past years.

Vote agreed to.

(4.) £2,098,920, Post Office Services, &c.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

said, the vast increase in this Department might well alarm the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and there was great danger of the whole Post Office revenue being swallowed up in charges. The revenue from that Department in round numbers amounted to £3,500,000, but the salaries and expenses exceeded £2,000,000. As compared with actual expenditure in 1861–2, the present Estimates showed an increase of £28,250, and there was a further sum of £75,000 for contingencies. He wished to know whether the Estimate included all the salaries and expenses of the Post Office? He was inclined to think that there were other charges, without mixing up the Packet Service with the matter. He trusted that his right hon. Friend would give them some clear information on the point.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he did not understand why the sum asked for in the present year should be larger than the Vote of last year.

MR. AYRTON

said, he wished to ask what arrangement had been made for meeting the expense of the Post Office savings banks?

MR. PEEL

said, that that expense did not fall within the Estimates. The increase mentioned by the hon. Member for Evesham (Sir Henry Willoughby) was to be accounted for by the continual additions made to the provincial establishments. An increase had also been made in the pay of sorters and letter carriers in the circulating department. The total increase in the Estimate over that of last year amounted to £14,233.

MR. AYRTON

inquired whether he was to understand that all the expense connected with the Post Office savings banks was paid out of the interest derived from the money of the depositors, and was not brought into the present Estimate. He was not aware that any authority was given by the Act to the Government to do that.

MR. PEEL

replied in the affirmative.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

said, he desired to have it explained how it happened that such an immense sum as £75,000 was asked for on account of contingencies; and he also wanted to know whether the Treasury Department exercised any clear and precise control over the Post Office.

MR. PEEL

said, that no addition was ever made to the establishment of the Post Office without the matter being brought under the notice of the Treasury. With regard to the sum required for contingencies, full information would be found in the Estimates.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

said, he wished to ask for an explanation of the item of £37,000 for official postage.

MR. PEEL

replied, that provision was made in the Civil Service Estimates for payment to the Post Office for the conveyance of official letters. In this Esti- mate provision was made for the conveyance of the correspondence of the Post Office itself. The receipts and expenses of the Post Office were thus shown.

Vote agreed to; as was also—

(5.) £515,796, Superannuations and Compensation Allowances, &c.

(6.) £56,986, to complete the sum for the Houses of Parliament.

MR. HADFIELD

said, he wished to call attention to the amount of fees paid on the passing of private Bills. It was said that the various companies and other parties applying for private Acts paid more than was sufficient to meet the expenses of both Houses of Parliament. It seemed to him monstrous that Parliament should make a large profit through the exercise of its legislative privileges, by taxing the promoters of projects beneficial to the public. He thought it would be well if a debtor and creditor account were furnished of the income and expenditure of the Private Bill Office.

MR. PEEL

said, that these fees were paid into the Exchequer, and appeared in the financial accounts. At this moment there was a Committee of the House sitting to inquire into the whole subject.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, he could not but complain of the great inconvenience which was occasioned by the taking of Votes on account, especially when the Committee was, as in that instance, asked to consider the Votes themselves on the very same evening. He also called attention to the rate at which these Estimates had increased of late years. In 1842 their amount was only £2,900,000; in 1852 £3,800,000. and that year it was £7,850,000. In 1842 the amount of Class 2, which included all the expenses of the Executive of the country, was £730,000; in 1852 it was but a little more than £1,000,000; that year it was £1,473,000.

MR. PEEL

reminded the hon. Gentleman that a great number of charges which were formerly paid out of the Consolidated Fund, or by fees, now appeared in these Estimates. That was a circumstance which ought not to be lost sight of in comparing the Estimates of different years.

Vote agreed to; as were also the following:—

(7.) £38,730, to complete the sum for the Treasury.

(8.) £19,263, to complete the sum for the Home Office.

(9.) £56,325, to complete the sum for the Foreign Office.

(10.) £23,047, to complete the sum for the Colonial Office.

(11.) £14,637, to complete the sum for the Privy Council Office.

(12.) £47,181, to complete the sum for the Board of Trade, &c.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, he desired to have some explanation of the amount expended upon what he might call the office of the clerk of the weather. A table of the weather was published in the papers every day, and it was accompanied by certain forecasts which, notwithstanding the wide range which they took, were scarcely ever fulfilled. Mr. Francis Moore used to take the safe side, giving through the greater part of the month the one statement, "wind and rain;" but since the President of the Board of Trade had assumed his privileges the intimations had been more detailed, and varied nearly every day. The effect of these predictions, with regard to sailors and fishermen, was often very injurious, either by keeping them at home when they might go to sea, or by inducing them to go to sea when they might be overtaken by storms. Only two days before the great storm of the 19th of October last Admiral Fitzroy prophesied that the weather on that day would be moderate, and it was only on the following day that, finding the weather was changing, he sent out a telegram that gales might be expected. In what he called the "Weather Book" he published the latter prediction, but not the former one. He should like to know whether the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade himself consulted his clerk of the weather before he started upon a voyage in his yacht. In truth, the whole thing was a burlesque, for no man could foretell the weather in so variable a climate as that of England.

MR. MILNER GIBSON

said, the Estimate had not yet been presented, and he therefore could not tell his hon. Friend what was its precise amount. The Vote for the Meteorological Department had, he might add, been proposed originally for the purpose of enabling this to co-operate with other countries in the collection of facts with reference to the prevalence of particular winds in parts of the ocean and the classification of those facts, in the hope that some rules might, by means of international communication on the subject, be established, and navigators thus guided on long voyages, and enabled, by ascertaining where certain winds might be found, to shorten their time at sea. The suggestion originated with the Royal Society. A system had since sprung up of deducing, from such facts as were obtained, forecasts of the weather, for the guidance of merchant seamen in determining whether they might or might not with safety leave port. Now, operations of that description had not been contemplated when the Vote had been originally proposed, and he had therefore called the attention of the Treasury to the growing increase in the Vote, and had suggested, that as the expenditure was diverted to other purposes than the collection and classification of facts, the proper departments should put themselves in communication with the Royal Society, and learn their opinion as to whether meteorological science had arrived at a state of such perfection as to admit of forecasts of the weather being made with tolerable accuracy. The matter was therefore still unsettled; but when the Government received the report of those scientific gentlemen whom they had asked to pronounce an opinion upon it, they would be in a better position to say whether it was expedient to continue to vote the public money for the purposes to which he was adverting. Under these circumstances, his hon. Friend would not, he hoped, object to the passing of the Vote in the present year.

MR. DILLWYN

said, he was glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman that the Board of Trade had placed itself in communication with the Royal Society on the subject, inasmuch as he had very grave doubts whether the public money would be usefully expended for the object in question or not. Admiral Fitzroy's drums, as they were called, which were to be seen at some of the ports, instead of guiding, tended, in his opinion, very often to mislead the masters of vessels. Not long ago he had observed, to a friend, seeing that one of these drums was not up, that the weather was sure to be fair, but that night came on one of the worst storms we had experienced this year. On the occasion of the Prince of Wales's wedding, too, having gone down to Swansea, where there were some demonstrations to do honour to the event, it so happened that he found one of those drums was up. Everybody, as a consequence, feared that a storm was at hand, but, instead, there were two or three days of very fine weather. Thus, on two occasions within his own knowledge, those signals were at fault.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, that as the subject was under consideration he would not further oppose the Vote.

Vote agreed to; as were also the following Votes: —

(13.) £1,994, to complete the sum for the Privy Seal Office.

(14.) £6,741, to complete the sum for the Civil Service Commission.

(15.) £14,640, to complete the sum for the Paymaster General's Office.

(16.) £2,923, to complete the sum for the Department of the Comptroller General of the Exchequer.

(17.) £22,857, to complete the sum for the Office of Works and Public Buildings,

(18.) £19,839, to complete the sum for the Office of Woods Forests, and Laud Revenues.

(19.) £15,235, to complete the sum for the Office of Public Records, &c.

(20.) £157,424, to complete the sum for Poor Law Commissions.

(21.) £37,901, to complete the sum for the Mint.

(22.) £19,610, to complete the sum for the Inspectors of Factories, &c.

(23.) £4,316, to complete the sum for the Exchequer and other Offices in Scotland.

(24.) £2,445, to complete the sum for the Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.

(25.) £11,580, to complete the sum for the Offices of the Chief Secretary for Ireland.

(26.) £2.752, to complete the sum for the Inspectors of Lunatic Asylums, Ireland.

(27.) £16,314, to complete the sum for the Office of Public Works, Ireland.

(28.) £25,060, to complete the sum for the Commissioners of Audit.

(29.) £14,351, to complete the sum for the Copyhold, Inclosure, and Tithe Commission.

(30.) £10,090, to complete the sum for the Inclosure and Drainage Acts; Imprest Expenses.

(31.) £35,511, to complete the sum for the General Register Offices.

(32.) £10.982, to complete the sum for the National Debt Office.

(33.) £2,910, to complete the sum for the Public Works Loan and West India Islands Relief Commissions.

(34.) £5,111, to complete the sum for the Lunacy Commissions.

(35.) £1,223, General Superintendent of County Roads, South Wales.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, that so rich a district as South Wales ought not to come upon the Consolidated Fund for so paltry an amount.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he believed that it was the only amount of public money which was granted to Wales.

SIR FRANCIS BARING

said, he wished to ask what funds had been used to pay money under the Vote since January, as there was no balance in the Exchequer.

MR. PEEL

said, that no payments had been required, and none would be made until April.

Vote agreed to; as were also the following Votes: —

(36.) £2,374, Registrars of Friendly Societies.

(37.) £12,243, to complete the sum for the Charity Commission.

(38.) £4,495, to complete the sum for the office in London under the Local Government Act, &c.

(39.) £2,342, to complete the sum for collecting Agricultural and Emigration Statistics (Ireland).

(40.) £1,193, to complete the sum for the Landed Estates Record Offices.

(41.) £1,098, to complete the sum for Quarantine Expenses.

(42.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £24,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1864, for Her Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Services.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, there had been no time to investigate these Estimates, and he should therefore move that the Chairman report Progress.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

MR. PEEL

said, he had given notice that these Estimates would be taken tonight.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(43.) £244,139, to complete the sum for Printing and Stationery.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

complained of the increase in the amount of this Vote.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

said, he wished to ask who was responsible for that Vote, the increase in which was almost incredible. Within the last twenty-seven years the country had spent pretty nearly £8,000,000 in printing and stationery. In 1835 the cost of these items was only £125,000; in 1853 it had risen to £216,000; and the next year it doubled, nor had it ever fallen materially from that time. In 1861 it was £416,000, and in 1862, £342,000. Every year an immense amount of stuff was laid before the House of Commons, which nobody ever read, and the House of credited with extravagant expenditure in printing. A great deal of the printing set down to the House was not fairly chargeable against it. Every Department which wanted to have something printed without swelling its own bill, managed somehow to get it put down to the House of Commons. The House appointed a Committee every year, which was composed of some of the ablest Members, to assist the Speaker on questions of printing. But did that Committee ever meet?

MR. PEEL

said, that the Departments were under the control of the Controller of the Stationery Department, who acted under certain rules laid down by the Treasury. If he received any application from any Department which was inconsistent with these rules, he made a special application for instructions to the Treasury. The Vote was, in fact, not so large as it seemed to be, for £40,000 was paid into the Exchequer on account of the sale of printed papers, and £19,000, voted for the printing in the Patent Office, was repaid by the fees.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, he had moved for a Return some time ago, which showed that the expenditure caused by the printing of papers for the House of Commons was comparatively very small. He hoped that hon. Members would not be deterred from moving for Returns by the plea of expense. Frequently most important and useful information could be obtained from the Government in no other way than by moving for a Return.

COLONEL SYKES

asked, whether the printing for the Public Departments was done by contract?

MR. PEEL

said, that the printing pro- vided for by the Vote was of three kinds— printing for the Government, printing for Her Majesty (that is, printing Acts of Parliament and Proclamations), and printing for the House. The payment of the charges for such printing was arranged in different ways.

Vote agreed to; as were also—

(44.) £90,025, to complete the sum for Postage of Letters on the Public Service.

(45.) £9,662, to complete the sum for the Treasury Chest.

(46.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £6,500, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1864, for the Expedition to the Niger under the charge of Dr. Baikie.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, that he hoped the Government would not proceed further with the Estimates that night as the Committee had not sufficient information before them to enable them to discuss the Votes which they were asked to pass,

MR. DODSON

said, that eighteen Votes had been passed over in consequence of the absence of the hon. Under Secretary for the Colonies, and the result was, that a branch of the Estimates was now taken up unexpectedly, which hon. Members, who were absent, did not anticipate would be proceeded with that night.

COLONEL SYKES

said, that if the Estimates had been gone through in their proper order, the items under consideration would not have come on at that early hour, in the absence of hon. Members who, perhaps, desired to take a part in their consideration, and he should therefore move that the Chairman report Progress.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, he had frequently heard objections to proceeding with Votes at a late hour, but to object to go on because it was too early—for that seemed to be the objection here—was a rather novel course. The Government were quite ready to discuss any points that might be raised by hon. Members.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, that the noble Lord was not dealing fairly with them, because it had not been anticipated that a number of Votes would be passed over, and others taken that could not have been reached had the Votes been taken in order. He had also to complain, that in consequence of the Votes given on account when they went into Committee, the sums put from the Chair were not the sums printed in the Estimates.

MR. DODSON

said, he submitted that before they voted the sum for the diplomatic service, they ought to know what was the expenditure of the last year. He hoped they would postpone the Vote for that service until after Easter, and that the House in the mean time would be furnished with Returns showing them the cost of the diplomatic service for last year.

COLONEL SYKES

said, the objection to proceed had not reference to the hour of the evening. The question was, were Members then prepared to go into those Votes? They were not prepared to go into them. He hoped the noble Lord would not press them to do so after such an expression of dissent from the Members of the House.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

replied, that full notice was given, and it was no argument to say that it could not have been expected that the earlier Votes could be disposed of so quickly and others come to. There were Votes that would be unopposed that might be taken.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, he hoped the noble Lord would give them a pledge that the Votes for the diplomatic and consular service would not be taken that evening.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, it seemed that the object of the Government was to shuffle the Votes through without inquiry, because, of twenty-eight Votes, nineteen had been postponed to a future day. Such postponements involved confusion. He wanted the Government to give notice of the numbers of the Votes that would be taken, but they would not do that.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, that the Government would not go on with the Votes for the Diplomatic Service, on which hon. Members required further information, that evening; but there were a number of other Votes which might be considered.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

The following Votes were then agreed to:—

(47.) £66,000, to complete the sum for Bounties on Slaves and Tonnaged Bounties, &c.

(48.) £6,950, to complete the sum for Mixed Commissions.

(49.) £116,462, to complete the sum for Superannuation and Retired Allowances.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

said, he wanted to know whether the Superannuation Account was not increasing.

MR. PEEL

said, that as far as that year was concerned, there was a decrease in the total amount, although there had been some new superannuations on account of the abolition of the Bermuda convict establishment.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

asked whether there was not an increase in the dockyard establishment

MR. PEEL

said, he was not aware of any increase during the last two or three years.

SIR FRANCIS BARING

said, he wished to call attention to an omission which had occurred through some inadvertence to the Superannuation Act, in consequence of which great hardship resulted in officials who suffered personal injury while engaged in the public service. The old Act contained a provision whereby the Treasury were enabled, under special circumstances, to grant a suitable allowance to persons who were disabled, as one of the officials in the Portsmouth dockyard had been a short time since from the murderous attack of a convict. Under the present Act, however, if the official had not been in the service for a period of ten years, there was no power to make a provision for him. That was a matter which he thought required the consideration of the Government, and he trusted that the Treasury would find a way to rectify the defect.

MR. CHILDERS

said, he wished to inquire what had been done in the case of the Bermuda convict officials.

MR. PEEL

said, that those officials received the usual retiring allowances, with the addition of compensation for the abolition of their situations. Those who were eligible for re-employment forfeited their allowances if they declined to accept it.

MR. AYRTON

said, he had often wondered whether the forfeiture of allowances on declining re-employment was ever enforced.

MR. PEEL

said, it was somewhat difficult to exercise the power of re-employing Superannuated officials. Lately, however, a number of Custom-house Officers, who had been superannuated, were again taken into employment.

Vote agreed to.

The following Votes were also agreed to: —

(50.) £744, for Toulonese and Corsican Emigrants, &c.

(51.) £325, for Refuge for the Destitute.

(52.) £1,966, to complete the sum for Polish Refugees and Distressed Spaniards.

MR. COX

asked whether the Polish refugees had gone back to assist in the insurrection. Poland was now the proper place for them.

Vote agreed to; as were also the following Votes:—

(53.) £55,700, Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions.

(54.) £10,400, to complete the sum for Relief of Distressed British Seamen Abroad.

(55.) £2,625, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Allowances formerly on Civil List, &c.

(56.) £1,451, to complete the sum for Public Infirmaries (Ireland).

(57.) £1,600, to complete the sum for the Westmoreland Lock Hospital.

(58.) £700, Rotunda Lying in Hospital.

(59.) £200, Coombe Lying-in Hospital.

(60.) £4,600, to complete the sum for the House of Industry, Dublin.

(61.) £1,500, to complete the sum for the Cork Street Fever Hospital.

(62.) £600, Meath Hospital.

(63.) £100, St. Mark's Ophthalmic Hospital.

(64.) £1,300, Dr. Steevens' Hospital.

(65.) £245, Board of Superintendence of Dublin Hospitals.

(66.) £5,847, to complete the sum for the Concordatum Fund.

(67.) £25,278, Non-conforming, Seceding, and Protestant Dissenting Ministers in Ireland.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, the charge was increasing, and ought to be diminished. He would take the sense of the Committee on proceeding with it in the absence of many hon. Members who took an interest in the subject.

Motion made, and Question put, That a sum, not exceeding £25,278, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1864, for Non-conforming Seceding, and Protestant Dissenting Ministers in Ireland.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 53; Noes 26: Majority 27.

MR. HENLEY

said, before the Chairman reported progress, he would beg leave to say that he thought that the mode in which the Votes had been taken that night was very inconvenient, and he trusted that it would not be drawn into a precedent. The notice on the paper of the Votes to be taken was, to say the least of it, very equivocal. It might be read different ways. It might have been supposed either that a Vote was to be taken on account for the several numbers mentioned, or even that the Votes were to be taken throughout upon each particular item, but no one would suppose that a Vote was to be taken on account early in the evening, and that the balance of the same Vote was to be taken at a later hour. Certainly if such a proceeding as that were intended, common candour required that full notice should be given, so that hon. Members might know what they were about. The Committee had actually agreed to balances in cases where the former Votes on account had not been reported, and where there was nothing to show to what they related. Such a hop-step-and-jump method of doing business precluded the possibility, he would not say of discussing the Votes in a proper manner, but even of understanding them. Many hon. Members were no doubt absent, thinking that the Votes would be taken in their regular order. But if that precedent were to be followed, they might as well all stay at home, for it was impossible that they could take part in the discussion for any useful purpose.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he wished to thank the right hon. Gentleman for his well-timed observations, and to express a hope that they would have the desired effect. He had often known Votes passed in an improper manner, but he had never witnessed such a proceeding as that of that evening. Nearly a hundred different Votes had been agreed to, and yet he believed that not one hon. Member knew anything whatever about them, as they were put from the Chair. Such a mode of transacting business was not in conformity with the honour or duty of the House, and he joined with the right hon. Gentleman in hoping that it would not be made a precedent.

MR. PEEL

explained that the Votes on account taken that night were not taken on the usual grounds on which Voles on account were asked for; but in consequence of a change which had been introduced during the last year in the mode of voting the Civil Service Estimates. Last Session those Estimates were voted on a principle which rendered it necessary that the Government should have the authority of the House for making certain payments falling due after the 1st of April next. It was by mere accident that the residue of the Votes was taken on the same evening. He had intended, indeed, to ask for Votes on account on the previous day, but the debate on the Irish Salmon Fisheries Bill occupied the whole of the sitting; and when he asked the House to go into Committee of Supply, his Motion was objected to, on the ground that it was then too late to proceed with it. He was consequently obliged to give notice for that night, because it was the last night on which Votes on account could be taken, if the Government were to have funds to meet the payments falling due at the beginning of the following month. With respect to taking the balance of the Votes on the same night, he could not tell at the beginning of the evening what progress the Committee would make, and therefore, in order to make sure of the sums required immediately, it was necessary that he should commence by taking a sum on account in respect of all the Votes.

MR. HENLEY

said, that he had not objected to the taking of Votes on account, as he quite understood the necessity for that course under the arrangements of the last year. But when that course was adopted, the House generally understood that another opportunity for discussing and eliciting explanations relative to the particular Vote would be afforded. He never before recollected a Vote on account and what was called the balance being both taken on the same evening. Indeed, he could not tell how the Chairman arrived at the balance when the Vote on account had not been reported. He believed that the first Vote ought to have been reported to the House before the second was proceeded with, and that the two should be treated as distinct Votes. Was the Report to be brought up on the following day in a double shape? That was a matter of no trifling importance. The process that had been adopted, if not irregular, was certainly novel, and he thought it so unusual that he felt it his duty to enter his protest against it.

MR. DILLWYN

said, he was glad that the right hon. Gentleman opposite had animadverted on that great irregularity which was creeping into their proceedings, and which, if continued, would put an end to the House's control over the Votes. He trusted that the same right hon. Gentleman would draw up a Resolution calculated to check so evil a practice. He supposed that the temptation to slip through the first and second halves of a Vote on the same evening was so great that the Government could not resist it.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, there could be no doubt that the course pursued that night had been unusual, because he believed that was the first, or nearly the first occasion on which the plan of taking Votes on account for the Civil Service Expenditure had been acted upon. But he could not admit that there was anything in it either dangerous, unconstitutional, or which limited the responsibility of the Government. What was it that his right hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury had done? Why, be had first asked for a Vote on account, say, to defray the salaries of the Treasury, and that Vote was agreed to. Then, later in the evening, he had asked for a further sum to make up the amount required for the expenses of the Treasury for the year. The right hon. Gentleman opposite said that the House knew nothing of those Votes on account until they had been reported. But what the Committee had to be satisfied about was that the Government asked neither too much nor too little in the aggregate for the expenses of the Treasury for the year; and if it had assented to the two Votes, he could not see that the Committee had been wanting in its duty, or that the Government had been guilty of any breach of its responsibility to the House. He quite agreed that it was not desirable that this course should often be repeated. He admitted that it was unusual, and might even, perhaps, be inconvenient, but that it was liable to the very severe censure of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, or that in this instance it could lead to any dangerous consequences, he could not for a moment suppose. The two sums correctly made up the amount which the Government intended to ask for the services of the present year; and it was impossible for his right hon. Friend to know in the early part of the evening what progress the Committee might make with the Votes. What he bad to do, in the first instance, was to secure a Vote on account to meet the payments falling due in April. The approval awarded by his hon. Friends near him to the observations of the right hon. Member for Oxfordshire was therefore somewhat precipitate.

MR. HENLEY

said, that he had never used the words "dangerous or unconstitutional." He had called the practice "novel," and believed it to be "irregular," and the right hon. Gentleman himself had just applied to it the further epithet of "inconvenient," which was quite correct. So far as he was concerned, he was content to leave the matter on that footing.

COLONEL SYKES

said, that when a Vote on account was moved that evening, he had felt satisfied that no division would be taken, and that an opportunity for discussion would be afforded when the balance was asked for on some future occasion. Believing that the usual practice would be adhered to, he bad left the House.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.