SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES.

HC Deb 23 March 1863 vol 169 cc1757-86

SUPPLY considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

(1.) Original Question again proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £956,365, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge of the Manufacturing Departments, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1864, inclusive.

Question again proposed, "That the Item of £35,871, for Establishments, be reduced by the sum of £2,000."

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

said, that the reduction of £2,000 he had moved from this Vote was the amount of salary paid to Sir William Armstrong. That Gentleman had resigned his office; and as the Secretary for War had not told them how he was going to apply the amount of salary that would be thus saved, there could be no reasonable objection to the reduction of the Vote. He understood that there was some idea of creating a new office, to be held by a general officer, whose duty would be to inspect the various Government establishments. He (Sir H. Willoughby) thought that the only effect of such an appointment would be to shut out the only daylight which the system admitted. He objected to the continual increase in the amount of charges for the nine establishments included in the Vote, which in less than ten years had grown from £15,500 to nearly £30,000. It was expedient, in his opinion, to put some limits on these establishments. There had been a very large decrease in the Vote for Stores, and, as a natural consequence, the charge for establishments ought to be reduced. Colonel Boxer, the head of the laboratory at Woolwich, and a most valuable public servant, had stated that in three months he could supply as much shot and shell as had been expended in the siege of Sebastopol; and therefore, with such resources, it was difficult to conceive why, in time of peace, the establishments should be increased. In the last four years the Elswick Company alone had been paid upwards of £700,000, and £1,100,000 had been paid for iron ordnance. The expenditure was enormous, and he wished to know when it was to be reduced. He agreed in the opinion of Mr. Hawes and Mr. Godley, that to a certain extent Government manufactories were desirable; but that they ought to be watched carefully, and that the public should be assured that they got the value for the money expended. He wished to know what was the amount of the forfeit to be paid under the indenture of 1859 to the Elswick Company, and whether it was now intended to suspend the operation of the gun factory? It would also be very desirable to know the cost of these arma- ments. What, for example, would be the cost of a 100-pound shot fired at the Taepings? A 100-pound shell at present costs 17s. This would give some idea of the cost to the nation of firing these shot at half-savage nations. However well managed these manufacturing establishments might be—and he gave full credit in this respect to certain departments at Woolwich—they were maintained at an enormous cost. But we were very much in the dark as to what those establishments really cost. In 1860, Mr. Anderson and Mr. Arbuthnot, in their evidence, said that the accounts of the store and manufacturing departments were not in a satisfactory condition. The country was kept in the dark because there was no balance sheet—he meant no general balance-sheet. There were balance-sheets for portions of the departments, but not for the whole; and on the 9th of July, 1862, Colonel Boxer admitted that he had never made out a complete balance-sheet. Again, when the Accountant General was examined, he stated that the accounts of 1860–1 had not then been audited. There ought to be duly certified balance-sheets submitted to an independent audit, otherwise the authorities were working in a circle. He moved this reduction because he thought it a reasonable and a wise one, and also because he thought it right that the attention of the House should be called to the costly nature of these establishments. The word "balance-sheet" was not enough; there must be a balance-sheet framed on proper principles, for he had seen plenty of such documents which were not worth a farthing. In the balance-sheet of a private firm allowance was duly made for rates and taxes, insurance, depreciation of plant, and interest on capital; but these items did not usually appear in Government balance-sheets. He believed that the end of the present system was approaching, and he hoped that the Committee would agree to the reduction which he now proposed, of £2,000 on account of establishments.

GENERAL PEEL

said, that the Government ought to be able to show a regular debtor and creditor account, and their establishments ought to be conducted on the same principles of account as commercial men conducted their private establishments. The reduction in the establishments was not in proportion to the reduction in the Votes; for there was a large reduction in this Vote, but the reduction in the establishment was only one seven-hundredth part of the reduction in the Vote; and in this and the following Vote the reduction was greater than the difference between the total amount of the Estimates for this year and for last year:—that was to say, that the whole reduction of £1,000,000 shown in the Estimates was in these two Votes. He confessed that he looked upon the explanation that had been given by his right hon. Friend the Secretary for War, with respect to the reduction in these two Votes, with alarm. He saw in them greater cause for alarm as to future expenditure than in all the rest of the Estimates. It was not shown on the Estimates, but the right hon. Gentleman told them that only £5,000 was taken this year for the production of ordnance, the Government having — very wisely—decided to suspend the production of rifled ordnance until it was decided which was the best. The Committee would see that this was only the postponement of a service, and that the postponement must swell the Estimates hereafter; for if Sir William Armstrong or Mr. Whitworth, or any one else, should produce a gun superior to that now employed, it would have to be adopted, and the expenditure involved up to that time would have to be incurred over again. He did not know what number of guns were required for the fortifications now in course of construction, but he believed that the cost of them would not be covered by the fortification loans, but would be chargeable to army grants; and he should like to see a general Return of the number required, to the furnishing of which he did not see there could be any objection, although it might be inexpedient to state the armament of any particular place. There was a Return from the Ordnance Department, showing that the number of guns completed up to the 1st of March, 1862, was 1,935, of which number one-third were 110-pounders; but it was evident from the recent experiments at Shoeburyness, that guns of far heavier calibre would have to be adopted; and not one of these was provided for in the Estimates—indeed, as yet they had got only experimental guns. All these facts went to prove that those who looked for a speedy and permanent reduction of the Army Estimates would be disappointed. There was a difference between the Estimate for the present year and the expenditure for 1858–9 of exactly £2,000,000. Part of the increase was to be accounted for by the difference of the manner in which the accounts with the Indian Government were kept. [Sir GEORGE LEWIS: And the militia is included.] So it was in the expenditure for 1858–9. After allowing for the difference in the mode of keeping the Indian accounts, the actual excess shown in the Estimates of the present year, over the expenditure of 1858–9, was between £1,100,000 and £1,200,000; and not one shilling of that excess was caused by any item of expenditure for the regular army; it arose from the manufacture of ordnance stores, rendered necessary by modern discovery. The increase and improvement of ordnance necessarily involved expense; and he feared that the expenditure on account of ordnance, which in 1858–9 was £600,000, was more likely to reach £2,000,000 than to be reduced to £600,000. He did not perceive the probability of the Government being able to make a reduction, nor did he think that the country was in such a state that it could not provide for any necessary expenditure; but if expenditure was not absolutely necessary, there was no degree of prosperity which could justify the Government in incurring it. His present object was to show that the apparent reduction in the Estimates proceeded from a postponement of services which must fall upon future Estimates, rather than from a real reduction in the Estimates themselves; and to press upon the right hon. Gentleman the importance of a debtor and creditor account being kept for the large manufacturing establishments.

MR. NEWDEGATE

said, that he submitted to the contract Committee, with the sanction of the late Sir Benjamin Hawes, a form of Return for the Enfield establishment, and it was approved by the Committee; but in reporting the products of the establishment the form of Return had been adopted only in one year; so that it was impossible not only to compare the products in point of cost with those made by private contractors, but the cost of the establishment and its productions from year to year.

SIR MORTON PETO

believed that any Government were not in a position to command the skill requisite for the carrying on of their extensive establishments. When the Armstrong gun was invented, it was thought that this country would possess a weapon which all the world beside would be without. Great secrecy was observed, and Sir William Armstrong was made a Government officer. But now, after expending £2,000,000 or £3,000,000, and erecting factories at Woolwich and Elswick, Sir William Armstrong had resigned, and the Government had to pay him a very large sum for his manufactory in the North; he possessed the means of supplying ordnance to the whole world, and the Government had thus lost the skill which they heretofore considered necessary for the superintendence of that particular branch of their works. This was a point that ought not to be lost sight of if the Government were determined to be their own manufacturers; but if they would only learn when to buy and how to buy, they need not manufacture at all, but would have-all the manufactories of the world at their command. As it was, the country would soon present the anomaly of a Government unable to trust any of its private manufacturers, who at the same time would be supplying all the rest of the world. All that the Government need do was to have specifications clearly drawn out, and to select contractors of high character, reserving the right to strike off their list those that did not deal honestly. This they had done satisfactorily in regard to the building of marine engines, and in no instance had they been disappointed. A manufacturer must have skill to purchase and to organize labour, and no man would do these so well for Government as he would for himself. He agreed with the hon. and gallant Officer opposite, that as soon as the Government had appointed a successor to Sir William Armstrong, and had made up their minds as to the best kind of ordnance, there would be a large expenditure; and in another year it would be found that the Estimates had not been reduced at all, because this year there was not the same ratio of stores that there had been previously. The only reason that the Estimates of this year were less than the Estimates of last year was, that the Government found themselves at fault with regard to the manufacture of ordnance, and they very properly hesitated before committing themselves further. He trusted the hon. Baronet would divide the House, because it was time a check was placed upon these establishments.

SIR FREDERIC SMITH

observed, that the manufacturing branches at Woolwich were well conducted in themselves, but required to be harmonized with each other. In appointing an officer to superintend all the establishments, the Government were taking a very necessary and useful step; and he believed they had chosen a very good man for the post. At the same time, while approving the appointment, he believed that the funds wanted for it might be procured by making a reduction in the staff. He was surprised to hear hon. Members talking as if the Government ought to give up manufacturing altogether. With improvements continually taking place in gunnery, it would be most unwise and unsafe to intrust the manufacture of ordnance entirely to the trade, who had neither the same interest in nor the same means of conducting experiments and keeping pace with the progress of the times. He did not believe that gun-carriages could be made in any private factory equal to those at Woolwich; it was a notorious fact that the trade could not manufacture gunpowder calculated to produce the same results as cheaply as the Government. It would therefore be very unwise to trust entirely to the private trade for the production of commodities which the private trade was not accustomed to produce. The Government establishments could keep pace with the improvements which were from day to day being effected; but the staff employed ought to be reduced in proportion to the reduction in the quantity required from them.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, the Committee would observe that upon the Vote under consideration there was a diminution upon the establishments this year, as compared with the last, of £435,000; and upon the next Vote which was for Warlike Stores, there was a dimunition of £698,000. The complaints, therefore, that had been made with regard to increased items for Establishments and Government Works did not apply to the present Estimates. With respect to the Manufacturing Departments, the Estimate for last year for the Supervising Establishments was £36,500, whereas for this year it was £35,800, showing not a very considerable diminution, but certainly not an increase. They had now only to deal with the Estimates for the present year. He did not undertake to make prospective Army Estimates. Next year they would have to consider the Estimates for that year, and would then see whether upon the whole there would be an increase as compared with the present year. It was sufficient if he showed that the Vote that he asked for would leave them with sufficient guns and sufficient stores in the magazines, and that the military service ran no danger of being crippled; and on the authority of the military advisers of the War Office he was enabled to state that those would be sufficient. With regard to the general question of Government manufactories, there were two conditions, which, if it was not necessary, it was, at all events, important, should be fulfilled when an article was manufactured, not by Government, but by a contractor. The first was, that the article manufactured should be capable of easy verification by inspection; and next, that it should be of a sort for which there was a demand by the general public, and was not exclusively consumed by the Government. If hon. Members would cast their eye down the list of articles mentioned in this Vote, they would see that the articles manufactured were exclusively those for which there was no general demand in the country, but which were used exclusively by Government. A manufacturer, before he could lay down plant or machinery for which there was no demand by private individuals, but which was exclusively used by Government, said to the Government, "You must give me a security that my money will not be thrown away; you must guarantee me a certain annual amount of orders; or you must advance money to me for the machinery and plant." Experience showed, that whenever private contractors contracted to furnish Government with articles of which Government was the only consumer, they must in effect be subsidized. If the Government wished to provide itself with a certain number of yards of cloth or cotton, or a certain number of pairs of shoes, there was no such difficulty, because those were articles in general demand, and he could not conceive any justification for a Government setting up manufactories of such articles. But it was different in the case of guns, or gunpowder, or muskets. Those were the general principles that appeared to him to govern the question of Government manufacture. He confessed that when he entered upon his present office, his opinions were that it was expedient for Government, in all cases where it was possible, to employ private contractors; but yielding to pressure of facts, he satisfied himself that it was not so easy as hon. Gentlemen seemed to think, to obtain a regular and cheap supply from private contractors. His hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury (Sir Morton Peto) said he (Sir George Lewis) had omitted one difficulty under which the Government laboured—namely, the difficulty of obtaining skilled assistance. But he did not admit the justice of the remark. Colonel Boxer, Mr. Anderson, Colonel Dixon, and other heads of departments, were most accomplished manufacturers; and though their pay was not high, their labour was great, and he believed them to be able to compete in skill, with any private manufacturer in the kingdom. He therefore thought that no advantage would arise from giving up the manufacture of ordnance in the Government factories; and that if they did, the guns supplied would not be so perfect in execution, and that no economy would result to the public. Gentlemen connected with the accounts department of the War Office, stated before the Ordnance Committee last Session that they believed that guns of a certain class (12-pounders), produced in the Woolwich factory, cost the Government about 50 per cent less than those supplied by the Elswick Company. He did not wish to make himself responsible for the principle on which the statement was founded, and it was difficult to make a fair comparison between that which was manufactured in a Government factory and that which was manufactured in a private factory; but he had formed the opinion that no advantage would be derived from closing the Government factories. He now came to the hon. Baronet the Member for Evesham (Sir H. Willoughby), who said the system of accounting was very defective. He must take the liberty of entirety disputing that assertion. [Sir HENRY WILLOUGHBY observed, that he quoted from the evidence of Mr, Anderson.] Mr. Anderson's evidence was given three years ago. Mr. Anderson was no doubt thoroughly master of the system of accounts, and when he stated that at that time they were defective, he no doubt stated what was correct. But at present the accounts of the Government departments included in the Army Estimates were audited in the most complete manner. They were audited for the year ending last March, and they could at any moment be laid on the table. They exhibited not only the cash account but the capital account. At the same time they exhibited a statement of all the articles in store, and they also showed how much of each sort was manufactured in the course of the year, and what was the cost of each article. Nothing more complete could be furnished. Perfect; securities were taken for the custody of the stores. The person in charge of each store had a list given to him of the articles when he took charge, and he was called upon to account for the articles. Every year a survey was held at all the stations, when not only was the condition of the stores ascertained, but certain stores were counted as samples of the correctness of the stock in hand; that was to say, stock was taken not completely but in the way of sample, and every five years there was a complete stock-taking, and every single article was examined, and was compared with the lists. These checks applied to the foreign stations as well, and the War Office was at any time able to furnish an account of the stores at any foreign station, such as, for instance, the station at the Ionian Islands. He thought that in this respect at least it was impossible to say that there was any neglect on the part of the Government. As far as the skill shown in the manufacture and the mode of accounting for the article produced went, no reasonable objection could be made; the general principle of having Government manufactories was, of course, a matter always open to discussion; but the practical issue of the hon. Baronet's proposal was to reduce the column for establishments by £2,000. The proposal was based on the fact that the office lately held by Sir William Armstrong had become vacant. Now, the vacancy of an office did not necessarily constitute economy. The usual course when an office became vacant, unless it was a sinecure, which the office lately held by Sir William Armstrong certainly was not, was to fill it up. However, he was ready to admit that some economy could be effected in the case of the office now vacant; and he had in contemplation a plan by which a saving could be effected in the gun factory, and at the same time an appointment might be made by which an inspection of the different establishments at Woolwich could be effected which did not now exist. At present, the head of each factory inspected his own work—a system which, though no serious inconvenience could be said to have resulted from it, was hardly consonant with the idea of a proper control over those who expended large sums of public money. He therefore proposed to appoint a military officer as inspector of the artil- lery and other articles manufactured at Woolwich. He had no wish to keep up establishments beyond the point which was absolutely necessary, but the Committee should bear in mind, that with respect both to these manufactories and to the army itself, it was important to have a framework which admitted of being called into operation when a sudden emergency arose. What was now passing across the Atlantic showed how an enormous expense might be created by the want of an adequate machinery ready at hand, and one of the advantages which we possessed was that we had such a machinery, capable of being called into activity whenever it might unhappily be needed. He promised, however, that everything should be managed on the most economical standard, and with this explanation he trusted that the hon. Baronet would not press his Amendment. If a division were taken, he hoped the Committee would support the original Vote.

SIR JAMES FERGUSSON

said, he thought the right hon. Baronet had not succeeded in showing the Committee that it had any real control over the Estimates of that Department. If the reduction now made in the Vote for stores did not involve any sacrifice of efficiency, the corresponding Vote of last year must have been greatly in excess of the public requirements; and if it were true that since the Estimates were prepared an order had been given for 100 Armstrong guns of large size, what became of the reduction? The right hon. Gentleman took a considerable sum this year for guns; yet a Committee had been appointed to determine what was the best gun for the service, or rather, as it would now appear, only to decide between the Armstrong and Whitworth guns, of which the specimens submilted may be of hitherto untried patterns. That was a practical confession that Sir William Armstrong, after all the costly experiments he had made, was not satisfied with the weapon that had been supplied to the service, and was still going on experimenting. The inquiry before the Committee ought to be thrown open to all inventors, and then we might ultimately secure the best gun for the country. It was most important that we should not accumulate a large stock of weapons that were practically obsolete. The right hon. Gentleman proposed to adopt a new system of inspection. Now, it was necessary, before they passed the Vote, that they should know exactly what was intended. It was given in evidence before the Ordnance Committee of last Session, that a system of independent inspection was under the consideration of the War Office some years ago; but the late Lord Herbert afterwards addressed a letter to the manufacturing establishments at Woolwich requiring the inspection to be conducted by the persons who were from day to day charged with the responsibility for their manufactures. Any inspection to be effective and real mast be made in the departments where the different processes were carried on, otherwise it would be impossible to tell whether the guns and shells manufactured had flaws in them or not. He wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman in what branch of the manufacturing departments at Woolwich the want of the proposed system of independent inspection had been experienced. In the only branch in which it had been tried, it had broken down. If inspection were to be more than a name, it would cost much more than £2,000 a year. There must, in fact, be a numerous staff, with an inspecting officer for every one of the departments.

MR. MONSELL

was afraid the hon. Gentlemen who were so anxious to go to dinner, hardly appreciated the importance of the subject before the Committee. The real question was, whether they should completely revolutionize the existing system? It certainly seemed to him that unless the statement which the hon. Baronet had made, and which he (Mr. Monsell) now confirmed, could be refuted, it would be absurd to change a system which had been completely successful during the Crimean war, and in spite of difficulties of the most formidable character. He must call upon his right hon. Friend to name the instances in which the slightest failure had taken place in the inspection carried on under the present system. Was the opinion of Lord Panmure, who had seen the working of the existing plan during our great contest with Russia, of no moment? Or was the late Lord Herbert no authority? That noble Lord, when he first considered the question, admitted that his prejudices were in favour of the proposal now made by the Secretary for War; but subsequent investigation had satisfied him that the proposal was dangerous and bad. The right hon. Baronet was going, in fact, not only to create a useless place for some military officers, but to multiply the existing expense on account of inspection four or five-fold. He hoped the Committee would not imperil a system which he contended was a perfect success.

COLONEL DUNNE

said, he was of an entirely different opinion as to the working of this system. He had the greatest respect for the opinion of Lord Panmure and the late Lord Herbert, but in the present instance he believed they were both wrong. No doubt, the incapacity displayed in the Crimea was the cause of serious military disasters, and the Government were now acting wisely in reversing that policy and placing distinguished military officers at the heads of the several departments, who were well acquainted with the best mode of working them. In the course that he was following he was sure that the right hon. Gentleman was doing that which was for the welfare of the country, and he did not believe that there was a single military man but would back him.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

was certainly rather surprised that the very modest proposal he had made with respect to alterations at Woolwich should have met with condemnation in the House. That it should have been condemned at Woolwich seemed very natural—he was quite prepared for disapprobation from the heads of the Woolwich departments; but that Gentlemen who had the control of the public purse should meet with censure a proposal for the simple inspection of the articles produced in the Government manufactories at Woolwich did fill him with surprise. With regard to the carriage department and the laboratory department, the persons charged with them inspected the produce of their own manufactories. He believed them to be highly honourable men, skilful in working, diligent and industrious; and he was perfectly prepared to say that no serious practical evil had arisen. But the Committee must see that was a system which did not contain within itself the elements of perfect control, and a time might arise when serious practical inconvenience might occur. With regard to the gun-factory, he believed there had been some imperfect external inspection; but it had been very little, and it could not be said that no practical inconvenience had been felt. His proposal was not a revolution, nor did it contemplate an additional expense of £30,000 or £40,000. All he asked was to be allow- ed to take £2,000 a year, which was set free by the resignation of Sir William Armstrong, and he would undertake that the whole of that £2,000 should not be exhausted by the system of inspection which he proposed.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

said, that the speech of the hon. Gentleman opened up a new question, which ought to be submitted as a distinct issue to the Committee. He should divide the House on the principle, that whenever a fair opportunity presented itself of reducing the public expenditure without injury to the public service, it should be eagerly seized upon.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 45; Noes 94: Majority 49.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(2.) £838,369, Warlike Stores.

COLONEL SYKES

asked, who paid for the shot and shell supplied to the Chinese Government.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, any stores supplied from this country would be paid for, and the amount received by the British Exchequer.

Vote agreed to.

(3.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £810,941, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge of the Superintending Establishment of, and Expenditure for, Works, Buildings, and Repairs at Home and Abroad, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1864, inclusive.

MR. CHILDERS

called attention to the large expenditure upon the new barracks at Chelsea. For three years the total sum which the work was estimated to cost had been stated in the Votes at £140,000; but this year, for the first time, the amount had been raised to £187,000. The reason assigned was that there had been an excess on the cost of the foundations. But these had been put in long ago, and surely the excess was discovered before this year. The arrangement as to the building of these barracks was very unbusiness-like. Instead of this erection being placed under the authority of an officer of Engineers, a premium was offered to architects, and the successful competitor was allowed a percentage on the outlay. The Department then appeared to have gone to sleep, and let the architect do what he liked; and what was thought to be the last year of the expenditure arrived, when the House was told that an additional Vote of £47,000 would be required on account of the unusual cost of the foundations. For this oversight the architect was, of course, responsible; but then he obtained an additional commission on the £47,000. Again, the House had been told in previous years that the total expense of the barracks at Colchester, so far as the Government were aware, was £80,000; but now the cost appeared to be £92,000. There was an item of £15,329 for huts at Gibraltar, on which last year there remained to be voted £4,500 and nothing more. Yet this year £6,000 was asked for on this account. Last year there was what was supposed to be a final Vote for improving the defences at Malta; yet it now appeared, that instead of £172,000, the outlay in this respect was £196,842. Such changes as these ought not to be made without full information being afforded to the House. There was another item upon which further information ought to be given. Without wishing to impute any other than straightforward conduct to the right hon. Gentleman, he must say that the manner in which the Votes for improving the defences of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick appeared to have been drawn looked as if concealment were the object in view. Last year £10,000 was asked for as a total Vote, and now they were told that this £10,000 was only the first instalment of an expenditure of £100,000—this expenditure, too, having been resolved on without communication with the local Government, whose first knowledge respecting it was obtained from the inquiries respecting the land. Greatly improved as was the form of these Votes, he complained that still they did not honestly show the amount to which it was intended that they should pledge the House.

COLONEL NORTH

said, he had hitherto abstained from speaking on the subject of the fortification Votes; but now, considering the enormous sums to be expended on fortifications, he thought it important to ascertain that proper precautions were taken to secure the health and comfort of the troops placed within them. Last year he was at Eastbourne, at one end of which town there was an old redoubt, which had been repaired for the reception of troops assembled for the purpose of rifle practice. £5,000 had been spent upon this work. This redoubt had been occupied a short time since by a garrison of 135 Scots Fusilier Guards, and he (Colonel North) had been informed that the arrangements of the place were so bad, that accommodation of a certain necessary kind did not exist within the fort, so that the arrangements which had to be resorted to by the soldiers at night were too disgusting to be described. He trusted this state of things, which could not have existed for a single day in any gaol in England whilst the right hon. Baronet was Home Secretary, nor in any workhouse, would speedily be remedied, as he (Colonel North) understood a detachment of the Guards were about to be sent to the same place. One day he heard the men complain of the water. On inquiry he found that the men were compelled to drink rain water, which was often both foul and scarce. In consequence, he waited on the secretary of the local water company, his impression being that there must be some great engineering difficulties in the way of supplying the fort, or that the charges were exhorbitantly high; but he found that the company would lay on the water for £28, and supply it at 1s. per thousand gallons, and only charge for the quantity actually consumed. He trusted that the right hon. Baronet would not lose an hour in putting an end to this disgraceful state of things.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

complained of the large amounts which were being expended, or were about to be expended, upon public works in some of our colonies, especially at Ceylon, the Mauritius, and Nova Scotia; and also asked for information as to the places at which the amounts proposed to be taken for military schools and chapels, accommodation for married soldiers, sanitary services, and other similar purposes were to be expended.

SIR FREDERIC SMITH

concurred with the hon. Member for Lambeth as to the right of the Committee to receive information on this subject. It appeared to be the desire of the Government to reform the east face of the Tower of London, and £10,000 was the amount taken for this work. This seemed to be wholly unnecessary, because the Tower could scarcely be considered as a work of defence, and was merely used as a great store warehouse; it was all very well to repair, but this was altering the character of the work, and was a whim that should not be indulged. At page 47, under the head "Various Stations," regimental schools and chapels and other works were mentioned. He (Sir Frederic Smith) should be glad to see the places specified by name where these works were to be constructed. The next item upon which he would remark was that of £450,000 for the defence of commercial harbours. He thought this was a very proper outlay, and that the works proposed were most important and most necessary. But he believed, that if this outlay were required, it had better be made at once. The whole cost intended to be expended was £450,000 — a sum of £206,000 had been voted, but only £121,900 had been expended. In consequence of this mode of procedure, the expense of superintendence was greatly increased. It would be much better to expend the money at once, and have done with it. He should also like to know of what materials these forts were to be constructed. If they were to be built of earth or stone, considering the increased power of modern artillery, a great mistake would be committed; but if they were to be constructed of iron, no one would complain of the system. He found also an item for additional accommodation at the Cape of Good Hope. For whom, he would ask, was this additional accommodation required? Then, again, there was the re-appropriation of the barracks at Warley, £10,000. He remembered the re-appropriation of Warley barracks three times over. Would the right hon. Gentleman state why this appropriation was to be made, and what was about to be done? Another item to which he wished to draw attention was that of £8,000 for the alteration of drainage and the utilizing of sewage at Aldershot. His experience in a Committee of this House last year had convinced him, that unless the circumstances were exceedingly favourable, no attempt to utilize sewage by its application to land would pay, and he was sure that in the case of Aldershot any expenditure with that object would be money thrown away.

SIR HENRY STRACEY

said, he also desired to make a few remarks upon the dilatoriness of the Government with regard to the erection of forts for the defence of commercial harbours, and he would particularly instance the case of Yarmouth. The late Lord Herbert in 1859 promised that two batteries should be erected to protect Great Yarmouth, and his consti- tuents had been led to expect that that promise would at once be acted upon; but, up to the present moment, the batteries had tot even been commenced. Lord Herbert had, moreover, admitted that the roadstead at Great Yarmouth was of the utmost importance, and that he did so was not to be wondered at when it was borne in mind that no less than 600 or 700 vessels frequently took refuge there in certain winds; that the same winds might bring an enemy into the harbour; that it was easy of assault by gunboats, and that is commerce in the north seas had greatly increased of late years. No port on the east coast was so defenceless, no port was so easily defensible, and for no port had so little been done. The Defence Committee, he might add, had recommended that, in addition to building new batteries, the old ones at Great Yarmouth, which were in a dilapidated condition, should be repaired, and Lord Herbert, supported by the best professional anthority, had so far acquiesced in that recommendation that land had been purchased for the purpose of carrying it into effect, which was now in. the possession of the Government. He should wish, under these circumstances, to know why that port was left in its present defenceless state, and upon what ground the present Secretary for War refused to act upon the decision of Lord Herbert and the Engineers by whose opinions he was influenced? The hon. Baronet, in conclusion, moved that Great Yarmouth should be included in the Vote as one of the commercial harbours of the country, at which works of defence ought to be erected.

THE CHAIRMAN

said, that as the Motion involved an increase of the Estimates, it could not, in accordance with the rules of the House, be put.

SIR HARRY VERNEY

desired to press on the right hon. Baronet the expediency of establishing institutes for soldiers, and suggested that the old hospital at Aldershot might with advantage be converted to that purpose. He thought, he added, that it would tend to the promotion of the health, morality, and efficiency of the men encamped at Aldershot, if they were during the summer months to be placed under canvas as far as possible.

COLONEL SYKES

, with reference to the note appended to the item of "Gibraltar," that "the change of site had caused an excess over the original Estimate," complained that greater care was not exercised in the first selection of a site for the purpose.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, that the Vote under this head last year was £995,000, and this year £810,000, being a diminution of £184,000, which could not be easily accomplished in this branch of the expenditure. Formerly these Votes were printed in a single column, showing the amount proposed to be voted in the course of the year. In consequence of the reasonable demands of the Committee, columns were added showing what was the original Estimate, how much had already been voted, and what additional sum was required. Unfortunately, it happened that Estimates were not unfrequently inadequate, and indeed it was almost impossible that the predictions which officers made of the amount required for works of the kind should invariably be realized. Unforeseen events occurred in the progress of the works. A change in the head of a department caused a change of intention. With an officer newly appointed new views were taken, fresh recommendations were made, and the plan originally submitted was departed from. This was not only the case in public affairs, but in private works, and any hon. Gentleman who had any experience in building would remember how he sometimes changed his mind in the progress of the work. He feared, that until they arrived at a period of ideal perfection, they could not expect to have immutable Estimates. He could certainly assure the Committee that the Estimates had been prepared with great care; and although it was difficult to insure perfect completeness, there was no intention to deceive. As to the barracks at Chelsea, he was free to admit that they will probably cost £47,000 more than the original Estimate, but it was an exceedingly good barrack, in the building of which modern improvements had been introduced; so that it was more commodious, more healthy, and far superior in every respect to the old barracks, such as Knightsbridge. As to Colchester, there was an excess of £2,000, but that was upon a total of £80,000. As to Walmer, it was converted into an Indian depôt, and the expense might be deemed to be met by the capitation grant. With regard to Nova Scotia, the Vote was for the expenses of fortifications at Halifax and St. John's. The fortifications at Halifax were looked upon as principally fortifications for naval pur- poses. It was one of our principal naval stations in the Northern Ocean, and the fortification of it was a matter of Imperial interest. With regard to St. John's, it was the place at which the troops were landed, and some expenditure there was of importance. It was for the Committee to consider whether they would vote these sums. He was quite aware that it was questioned whether we should spend any money on fortifications for the Colonies. He could only say, for his own part, that he was most unwilling to propose the expenditure of a single hundred pounds for the fortification of the Colonies which did not appear to be of Imperial interest. If Gentlemen were prepared to lay down the principle that they thought it desirable or that they were willing to entertain the question of emancipating the Colonies or handing them over to some foreign Power, he could understand the proposition; but it was hardly possible to renounce the duty of providing, to a certain extent, for the military defence of the Colonies as long as they formed an integral part of the Imperial dominions. There was one point to which he thought it right to advert, because he misled the Committee last year by a statement that £10,000 or £15,000, which was then voted, would be sufficient to complete the defences of the Mauritius. He was at the time under that impression; but on conferring with Sir John Burgoyne he found it was impossible, without more money, to place those defences in a state of tolerable efficiency. He therefore proposed this year an additional sum of £15,000, with the prospect of a further Vote to the extent of £34,000. With regard to Eastbourne, they were not regular barracks, and he would inquire whether it was possible to discontinue that item of expenditure. With regard to Great Yarmouth, he proposed this year to take a Vote for fortifications in the commercial harbours of the Mersey and the Humber; so that the hon. Baronet opposite (Sir H. Stracey) would see that the east coast was not neglected. He did not propose to take any Vote to fortify Great Yarmouth, for it was impossible for the Government to undertake to fortify the whole coast. The principle on which they had gone was to fortify our arsenals and those places wherein our military and naval strength resided, and to make them safe against the sudden attack of an enemy. With regard to the Tower, the expenditure for this year was £3,000, and the receipts from the Tower armoury were £2,636 for the year. Though of no great importance for defensive purposes, yet the Tower was connected with so many historical associations that the Committee, he thought, would not grudge the sum required for necessary repairs and alterations, especially as so large a portion was covered by the receipts.

COLONEL NORTH

said, that the explanation of the right hon. Baronet with regard to Eastbourne Barracks was very unsatisfactory. He should make further inquiries; and if he found that nothing had been done, he should bring the subject before the House in a distinct form.

SIR HENRY STRACEY

said, the War Office had undertaken to defend Great Yarmouth by building two batteries, and he thought they were bound, in good faith, to carry out that undertaking.

MR. BAXTER

said, he was not satisfied with the explanation as to the expenditure proposed for colonial fortifications. Last year the House, with the complete assent of the Government, agreed to Resolutions affirming that the self-governing Colonies ought to be called on to provide for their own defences. Earl Grey and Lord Herbert were examined before the Select Committee on this subject, and both of them stated that a large part of the expenditure on colonial fortifications was entirely wasted, and that frequently the sums voted were not fairly chargeable to the Imperial Exchequer. He himself, had moved a Resolution on the subject, but he had not pressed it, having been satisfied by the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War, and the Under Secretary for the Colonies, that the Government were of the same mind as himself. Having looked very carefully through the Army Estimates, he was not at all satisfied with what the Government were doing this year to carry out the Resolutions agreed to last Session. It was proposed to vote £14,300 for fortifications and store-buildings in the Colonies which were self-governing. There was an increase in the item for Halifax, Nova Scotia. He should like the House to notice the fact, that, of a sum of £10,000 voted for those fortifications last year, only £1,891 had been expended. He was told that it was the intention to bring the whole outlay up to £100,000; but as only £1,891 out of the £10,000 already granted had been actually spent, the House had now an opportunity of expressing an opinion that this was not a proper application of British money. He did not think that in the Estimates before them, the right hon. Gentleman was carrying out the previously expressed intention of the House of Commons; and he therefore begged to move the reduction of the Vote by a sum of £10,000.

MR. HALIBURTON

said, he had before taken the trouble of setting the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Baxter) right on the subject of the fortification of the Colonies, but found that he immediately got into the wrong path again. The hon. Gentleman set himself up in a manner to excite the reverence of the Colonies as a roan of wonderful integrity and extraordinary disinterestedness. There was a foreigner who came to this country once, and whom, no doubt, many hon. Members had heard performing on the fiddle—he meant Paganini. He had only one string, and on that he played many tunes. The hon. Member for Montrose was more fortunate, for the Scotch fiddle he played on had two strings. There were two questions that he had taken under his particular patronage—namely, subsidies to ocean steamers and fortifications in the Colonies. Upon these strings he played the same tune every Session. He would ask whether the possession of a representative government was the gauge by which they could judge of the duty of a Colony to pay for her own fortifications? At Halifax there was a very large dockyard without a dock. There was a harbour there, and the place was a great military position; but he believed that no harm would be done to the people of Nova Scotia if the whole town was burnt. It consisted principally of wooden houses; and the only improvement it had undergone in his time was that which had succeeded several large fires. He complained very much of those continual discussions about the Colonies in an assembly where they were not represented.

MR. ARTHUR MILLS

said, he thought that the conduct of the British Government on the occurrence of the Trent affair showed that this country was not disposed to repudiate her obligations towards the Colonies; but it was quite a different question, whether we were bound to maintain the fortifications in all these Colonies; and he should therefore support the Motion for the reduction of the Vote. Those who held the doctrine that the Colonies should be defended by this country, and were prepared to grant large sums for that purpose, would do well to consider whether the construction of fortifications was likely to effect the object they had in view. Since the year 1815 over two millions sterling had been expended on fortifications at Bermuda, and yet there was not one fort there capable of resisting the attack of two French frigates. Sir John Burgoyne stated, in his evidence before the Committee, that the works at the Mauritius would require a further expenditure of about £300,000, and a garrison of 6,000 men. With such a number locked up in them these fortifications were elements rather of weakness than of strength. He believed that the true way to defend our colonial empire was to maintain command of the sea. Before the Committee agreed to that Vote, they ought to consider whether they were not about to involve themselves in an expenditure which was worse than fruitless.

MR. DODSON

said, that the arguments used in favour of the Amendment might be well founded, if applied to the erection of small fortifications to be held by small garrisons; but such was not the proposition submitted to the Committee. He quite concurred with the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Mills), that the maintenance of our colonial possessions depended on our naval supremacy; but that was a reason not for opposing, but for supporting the Vote—for, in order to retain that supremacy, it was necessary to have arsenals and dockyards in different parts of the world where a fleet could, in case of necessity, be refitted. Works and fortifications of the kind proposed, so far from scattering, tended to the concentration of our troops. If this country was engaged in hostilities in India, it would be found very convenient to have a considerable force at the Mauritius, which could be made available as the necessities of the case might require.

COLONEL NORTH

said, his only objection to the Vote was that it was much too small. He thought the experience acquired last year, when troops were sent to the colonies, demonstrated the necessity that existed for having fortifications such as those which had been referred to in the course of the discussion.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

assured the Committee that the items composing this Vote had been carefully revised with a view to their reduction. He had been described by the hon. Member for Mon- trose (Mr. Baxter) as having stated, in the last Session, that it was not advisable to erect new works in the Colonies, or to make very expensive additions to existing works. By new works he must have meant works in places not at present fortified, and he believed that it would be found that it was not proposed by this Vote to fortify any place not yet fortified. With regard to the additions, he believed that what was proposed, so far from being extravagant, was of the most moderate description. The charge in Part 1, for "New Works Abroad" over £1,000, was £72,000, which could not be deemed an excessive sum when the objects in view and the cost of building were considered. Then, in Parts 2 and 3, the outlay for new works, additions, and repairs under £1,000 each, was only £9,800 in the former, and £15,057 in the latter case. About £2,800 was spent on Canada, and £884 on Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. As we had a considerable force in those parts at present, that expenditure was really very reasonable. The new works at Halifax and St. John's would be of great service for military and naval purposes. It was not in the power of the Government to compel the Colonies to pay these sums; and if the Committee would not vote the money, there was no prospect that it would be forthcoming elsewhere.

MR. BAXTER

said, he must take the sense of the Committee on the matter.

MR. BUTT

said, that to refuse to defend the Colonies was in effect to abandon them. If the Vote was rejected, the House should either compel the Colonies to construct works or leave them undefended. Having given them self-government, the House would not, by taxing them, raise again the question out of which the North American war of independence had arisen. If the Colonies were attacked, this country would have to protect them, and it was therefore an act of prudence to construct fortificatious by means of which the defence of our possessions would be effective.

Motion made, and Question put, That a sum, not exceeding £800,941, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge of the Superintending Establishment of, and Expenditure for, Works, Buildings, and Repairs at Home and Abroad, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1864, inclusive.

The Committee divided: — Ayes 43; Noes 75: Majority 32.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(4.) £172,201, Military Education.

COLONEL NORTH

asked, why it was that marks for good conduct did not count in the final examination of cadets. He thought that they should not only count, but should take precedence of all other marks. He thought, also, that in the selection of prizes a sword or something of that sort would be more valued than books.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

admitted the importance of good conduct, but said there was great difficulty in giving it value in an examination.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

inquired, how it happened that the payment to the Lieutenant Governor of the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich had been increased from £500 to £1,000.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, the real increase was only £200. The remaining £300 was paid by way of compensation for allowances.

SIR FREDERIC SMITH

observed, that the Lieutenant Governor had now double the amount of duty and responsibility which he used to have. He noticed that the expenses of the Council amounted to £8,174. Why were the Indian Government not called upon to contribute more than £360 towards that amount?

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

replied, that any change by which the Indian Government should contribute a larger sum would have his entire concurrence.

SIR MINTO FARQUHAR

had been told that the new buildings at Sandhurst were damp, and that the cadets had suffered in consequence.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, the cadets were under the control of the Commander-in-Chief, and not that of the War Department.

MR. W. EWART

asked what steps had been taken to introduce gymnasia into the army.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

pointed out that there was a Vote for an instructor of gymnastics, and also one for sanitary purposes.

Vote agreed to.

(5.) £85,441, Surveys, &c.

MR. WYLD

inquired why the Ordnance Survey for England was not completed, and that were the intentions of the Government with regard to the recom- mendations of the Committee of last year in reference to the survey upon a larger scale.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

explained that the 1-inch map was finished for all England, with the exception of a few of the northern counties, and the survey in those counties was now being completed. There was a large part of Scotland in which the survey was incomplete. The 6-inch map for Ireland had long been perfected. With regard to the survey of England on the 25-inch scale, which was limited at present to the six northern counties and a large part of Middlesex, the Government had decided that that survey ought to be continued. No Vote was asked this year for that purpose, but it was their intention next year to propose one.

COLONEL DUNNE

wanted to know whether the advantages of the 25-inch scale were to be extended to Ireland, and whether the expense of the survey for England was to be placed upon the county rates?

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

believed that it was proposed to extend the survey to Ireland.

MR. AYRTON

understood that there was nothing in the present Vote which pledged the Committee to the 25-inch scale, his opinion of which was, that it would be perfectly useless.

MR. SCULLY

believed that a 25-inch map would be a work of great national importance, and hoped that when the survey for England was perfected, a map of Ireland upon the same scale would be prepared.

Vote agreed to.

(6.) £88,135, Miscellaneous Services.

COLONEL DUNNE

complained of an increase from £830 to £1,215, in the pay to the staff for the German Military Settlers at the Cape of Good Hope, and inquired how long this charge was to continue.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

observed, that these men were sent to the Cape at the termination of the Crimean war, and he could hold out no immediate hope of the charge being removed from the Estimates.

COLONEL DUNNE

, referring to the item of £1,000 for medals, asked how it was that medals which had been earned years ago by soldiers, had not yet been delivered. He thought that this was a disgrace to the country.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, that if the hon. and gallant Gentleman would specify to what particular medal his observation applied, he (Sir George Lewis) would inquire into it.

COLONEL NORTH

observed, that the officers of the First Bengal Fusiliers, and the whole of the Artillery, had not yet received the medal for Delhi, which was captured five years ago.

Vote agreed to.

(7.) £213,177, Administration of the Army.

SIR JOHN TRELAWNY

asked for an explanation of the rule on which the Government acted towards officers of the Staff. Those officers were said to hold their offices for five years only; but several exceptions to that had been made in favour of particular officers at home. He wished to know whether these matters were regulated upon any fixed principle; and, if so, what was that principle? There were three officers now holding high offices in the administration of the army to whose appointment it was distinctly understood the rule would be applied.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, the rule was as the hon. Baronet had stated. One of the three officers to whom, he supposed, reference was now made was the Commander-in-Chief. Was that not so? [Sir JOHN TRELAWNY: Yes.] Well, he had never understood that that was an appointment which should come within the rule of being tenable only for five years. He thought it quite unreasonable and contrary to the spirit of the rule that it should be applied to his Royal Highness. The other two officers also holding situations at the Horse Guards had held their offices a sufficient time to contravene the rule. They came, strictly speaking, within the rule.

COLONEL NORTH

observed, that it was always understood that the Secretary of State for War had the power, and would exercise it, of continuing those officers so long as he deemed necessary for the public service.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

noticed several items in this Vote which had never appeared before. For instance, there was allowance for forage to the Commander-in-Chief, £976. This was the forage for forty horses. His Secretary also received £244 forage money. On referring to former Estimates he found that neither Lord Hill, the Duke of Wellington, nor Lord Hard- inge had such allowances, which, he held, were altogether preposterous.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, the same allowance had been made to the Commander-in-Chief last year.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he would certainly take the sense of the-Committee on the Vote, although he was sorry to do so, from the high respect he entertained for his Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge.

COLONEL NORTH

pointed to the fact that the Estimate last year was £4,432, which included this allowance, the sum being identical with that to be voted this year, with the exception of £9 9s. 6d. for an additional day in leap-year. Every officer in the army was allowed forage.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

assured his hon. Friend that there was nothing new in this Vote. His Royal Highness had precisely the same allowance for forage last year as the Estimate proposed to allow this year. The Estimates were made out with greater detail this year, but the pay and allowances for forage amounted together to the same sum as last year.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

had referred to the Estimates for the last five years, and found no such charge for forage.

GENERAL LINDSAY

asked, if it was not the fact that the Commander-in-Chief, although made recently a Field Marshal, received exactly the same pay as before, and that the allowance for forage appeared in previous Estimates under another head, while this year it was included under this Vote in order to bring the whole more clearly before the Committee.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, that statement was quite correct. All officers of a certain rank received a certain amount of forage. When the Duke of Cambridge was made Field Marshal he would, according to the regular scale, have been entitled to higher pay and allowances; but he understood and agreed to the arrangement that he should not claim any additional pay or allowances, but only receive the increased rank of Field Marshal. His Royal Highness received identically the same allowances that were enjoyed by his predecessors in office.

SIR JOHN TRELAWNY

called attention again to the rule which laid it down that Staff officers should be changed every five years. He referred to the questions which had been asked upon the subject of re-appointments by the hon. Member for King's County (Colonel Dunne) on the Military Committee, which recommended the change of system; and unless he received some more satisfactory explanations with regard to certain exceptions to the rule than had been given by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War, he should move a reduction of the Vote by £5,569, being the salaries of certain Staff officers who had been re-appointed after five years' service contrary to the recommendations of the Committee.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, he thought he had given a very distinct answer to the question already. He had said, and would again say, that he never understood the rule to be applicable to the office of Commander-in-Chief. The offices of Quartermaster and Adjutant General came strictly within the rule, but it was, in his opinion, competent to the Commander-in-Chief, with the consent of the Secretary of State for War, to abstain for a limited time from enforcing the rule in extraordinary and important cases. He could only say he considered himself answerable for the discretion that had been exercised in the cases referred to, and that he was perfectly justified in the re-appointments.

LORD HOTHAM

considered that the recommendation which had been made by one of the Military Committees, and adopted by Lord Herbert, was most unwise with regard to the officers in question. It was much to be regretted that the proposition should have been laid down so broadly, that all Staff officers should be changed every five years. There were two offices especially in which a change every five years would be fatal to their efficiency. He did not know whether the Military Secretary was included in the rule; but, to be efficient, the Military Secretary should know every officer in the army, and that was a thing which would require grout experience. If they were to change the Secretary every five years, what chance would the Commander-in-Chief have of doing justice to the army? for it was upon the information which the Military Secretary gave him he had to rely. Then as to the Adjutant General; he might be called the court of appeal of the army, and ought to have served in every part of the world, so as to know the duties to be performed in every station in which a part of the army might be placed. If he were changed every five years, he would not know his business. He, for one, thought that the Secretary for War had exercised a most wise discretion in the course which he had taken in this matter; and if he wished for good and efficient officers in the situations just alluded to, he would disregard the recommendations of the Committee; for so long as he found an officer efficient, he would do good to the whole army by continuing him in his post.

COLONEL DUNNE

quite agreed with the noble Lord who had just spoken that, with respect to the Staff at headquarters, it would be most injurious to lay down any such rule. But the object which he had in view when on the Military Committee was to prevent the evasion of the rule by the transfer of officers from one staff to another.

Vote agreed to.

The following Votes were also agreed to:—

(8.) £25,933, Rewards for Military Service.

(9.) £77,782, Pay of General Officers.

(10.) £464,895, Pay of Reduced and Retired Officers.

(11.) £172,157, Widows' Pensions and Compassionate Allowances.

(12.) £32,843, Pensions and Allowances to Wounded Officers.

(13.) 33,776, In-Pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals.

(14.) £1,142,702, Out-Pensioners of Chelsea Hospital.

(15.) £144,964, Superannuation Allowances, &c.

COLONEL DUNNE

wished to know whether any decision had been come to with respect to the superannuation of barrack-masters. He trusted there would be no civil appointments to this office in future.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, barrack-masters were not soldiers. [Colonel DUNNE: They ought to be.] Whether it was desirable to appoint old soldiers or not was another question. As civil officers, however, they came under the rules of Civil Service Superannuation.

COLONEL DUNNE

said, that if soldiers were appointed barrack-masters at forty, fifty, or sixty years of age, they had very little chance of superannuation under the Civil Service regulations.

Vote agreed to; as was also—

(16.) £32,786, Disembodied Militia.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

Committee to sit again on Wednesday.