§ LORD ELCHOproceeded to say, he would now come to the Question which stood on the Notice paper in his name. It was the wish of the Volunteers to join in the loyal demonstration of Saturday. Her Majesty had graciously acceded to that wish, and by Her Majesty's command they were drawn up in Hyde Park. All these Volunteer gatherings were organized by the War Office and the Horse Guards; and in this instance the space of ground railed off for the Volunteers was as much as those authorities thought sufficient, and no more; the space allotted was 1,000 yards by 100, and in that space 17,000 men took up their position, and held it without confusion or delay. Now, the following paragraph appeared in the official part of The Times the other day in large print, and bearing the character of an official communication:—
THE POLICE IN HYDE PARK.—The arrangement by which the spectators in Hyde Park on Saturday were kept at an unnecessary distance from the line of the Royal procession caused some well-founded complaint on the part of the public. We understand that the regulation enforced formed no part of the original instructions given by the police authorities, and was contrary to the express orders of Sir Richard Mayne.That paragraph implied that the public had been kept at an unnecessary distance, or, in other words, that too large a space had been enclosed for the Volunteers; and the name of Sir Richard Mayne appeared in it. Now, he did not presume, on his own authority as an humble Volunteer, to say whether the space so enclosed was or was not sufficient for the necessary manoeuvres the Volunteers had to perform; but he would quote an authority which might be set against the authority of Sir Richard Mayne, whose qualifications for 1410 his office had not been acquired in the army or the field, but at the bar. In the opinion of General Rumley, who was in command on Saturday, not one foot more than was absolutely required was railed off. Some inquiry was, he thought, necessary as to the authority by whom that paragraph was furnished to The Times; because it was literally a censure upon the Horse Guards and the War Office, by whom the Volunteer demonstration was directed. He could hardly suppose that it appeared with the sanction of the Secretary for War, because it conveyed a censure on his own Department; nor with the authority of the Home Secretary, because it was a censure upon his Colleague. He must, therefore, think it was sent by the authority of Sir Richard Mayne; and he must say, that if that gentleman had either directly or indirectly authorized its insertion, he had forgotten his position and exceeded his duty in so doing. If they were to have these Volunteer demonstrations in Hyde Park, it was important to know whether they were to be regulated by the War Office and the Horse Guards, or whether the space required for them was to be under the control of Sir Richard Mayne and the Metropolitan police. He did not think the Secretary of State for War would object to his putting the question of which he had given notice, as it would enable the right hon. Gentleman to maintain the dignity and importance of his Department. He would, therefore, ask by whose authority an official paragraph appeared in The Times, complaining that the space railed off for the Volunteers on Saturday was unnecessarily great.
SIR GEORGE LEWIS—Perhaps it would be more convenient that I should answer this question now, although some other questions may be put to me in the course of this discussion, and which, according to strict rule, I should be unable to reply to if I at once answered the noble Lord. I have been informed by Sir Richard Mayne that the paragraph in. The Times to which my noble Friend refers was founded upon information furnished by himself. I had no knowledge myself of the paragraph in question before I saw it in the paper, nor did my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary have any more knowledge of it than myself. I believe the arrangements in respect to the Volunteers were carefully made; that their stations in the Park 1411 were marked upon a map which was shown to His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge and Sir Richard Mayne, and it was understood their assent to that position had been obtained. I have communicated with General Rumley, who had the command of the Volunteers on Saturday, and he has informed me that no more room was assigned to the Volunteers than was necessary for their movements. My own belief is, so far as I am able to form a judgment, that the arrangements were properly and carefully made, and that no unnecessary ground was occupied by the Volunteers. I can only regret that any misunderstanding should have taken place; but, so far as my own information and knowledge extend, I cannot admit that any error was committed by the military authorities with respect to the position of the Volunteers on that day.
§ LORD HOTHAMWhat has been said by the noble Lord and the right hon. Baronet renders it necessary for me to say a few words on this occasion. It may be asked why do I interfere in a matter of this description? My answer is very simple. On my way down to the House to-day I accidentally met Sir Richard Mayne in the street. He asked me if I had seen the notice given by my noble Friend, and, anticipating that some attack would be made on him, he asked me, not to defend him, but if I would have any objection to state what he did, and all that he did, on that occasion. I therefore beg the indulgence of the House for a few moments. It has always been the custom on all public occasions, excepting reviews in Hyde Park, for the police to take charge of, and to keep the streets clear through which any procession has to pass, and on that occasion the duty was confided to Sir Richard Mayne by the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department. In the execution of that duty he made arrangements for the procession, not only through the streets, but through the Park. He caused to be marked off in the Park a space sufficiently wide for the passage of the Royal cortége, and, in addition to that, space sufficient to be occupied by the Volunteers who had expressed the laudable desire to line the way for the passage of the Royal Prince and Princess; but in doing this care was taken not to take possession of a single inch of ground which might be available for the gratification of the natural curi- 1412 osity of the large population of this metropolis. This was done on Friday; but the same evening Sir Richard Mayne received information that the military authorities were making different arrangements; that they desired a much larger space to be provided, and that tickets were issued by the military authorities for the accommodation of spectators. The Commissioner of Police did not understand the thing to have gone any further than the expression of a wish that a larger space should be provided than had been marked off by himself. Great therefore was his astonishment, on going to the spot the following morning, to find not only that the space he had considered sufficient for all legitimate purposes was departed from, but that a vastly larger space had been set apart than could be necessary for the Royal procession, thus depriving thousands of the opportunity of seeing the illustrious Princess on whom the thoughts of every one were fixed. The noble Lord (Lord Elcho) has talked of no larger space being taken than was necessary for the execution of manoeuvres by the Volunteers, and he has also spoken of what is usual on Volunteer gatherings. To hear the noble Lord talk of Volunteer manoeuvres, one would suppose that a review or field-day was to have taken place; and as to a Volunteer gathering, it was no further to be considered a Volunteer gathering than to exhibit to the Prince of Wales and the Princess Alexandra the earnest desire they had to pay their loyal respects to them. If my noble Friend means to say that no more ground was taken up than was necessary for enabling the Volunteers to get into their places, he must be attributing to the Volunteers a want of discipline which I should be ashamed to impute to them. [Lord ELCHO: I quoted the opinion of the General in command.] Let me tell the noble Lord no one has greater respect for the General in command than I have; but if he were asked whether it would be necessary to give a space of from 100 to 120 yards in width to enable the Volunteers to get to their places in the Park, I am greatly mistaken if he would not think that any person putting such a question to him could have but a poor opinion of their discipline. Do not let my noble Friend imagine that I mean to say anything disrespectful to the Volunteers. No man in England appreciates more than I do their loyalty, the zeal they display, or the time 1413 and money they expend in acquiring a knowledge of their duties. No one witnessed with greater pleasure than I did the Volunteers, including my noble Friend's well-appointed corps, pass along Pall Mall that morning; and the noble Lord could not fail to see a battalion of Her-Majesty's Guards, through which he himself passed, the regiment indeed to which I formerly had the honour to belong. They marched down Pall Mull, and took up their places; they did not require a space of 100 or 120 yards wide to do so. They marched down Pall Mall, with their band at their head, the street being tolerably crowded at the time. In Waterloo Place one wing took its post on one side, the other wing on the other side, and scarcely any disturbance of the street took place. Therefore, I do think my noble Friend must have expected that something more was to be done by the Volunteers than the mere lining of the space through which the Royal cortége. was to pass. I have heard it said that one reason for taking up this large space was that they might "march past," but whom were they to march past? [Lord ELCHO: The General in command.] The General in command! The senior officer on the ground, no doubt; but I am quite certain that General Rumley, if left to himself, never would have submitted to be "marched past" by a body of Volunteers on such an occasion. They were assembled to do honour to the Prince and Princess; that was the duty they had to perform; and when that duty was performed, they ought to have done what, in point of fact, they did—the moment the procession passed, they went away home. I have said so much—perhaps more than was necessary for the occasion—in explanation of the part taken by the Chief Commissioner of Police. I have stated that when he went in the morning he was greatly surprised to find his orders contravened; and so displeased was he that without any notice to him his orders had been deviated from, that the first thing he did, and very properly, was to suspend the officer who had charge of the police in that particular quarter. He pleaded, in, extenuation, that he was almost compelled to deviate from his orders by a Staff officer; but, said Sir Richard Mayne, "Your duty was immediately to have sent notice to me of the orders you were compelled to I obey, instead of taking up different ground from that which I ordered you to occupy; 1414 you should never have yielded it except to force or without giving notice to me." On the morning after the procession there appeared in The Times newspaper some observations reflecting very strongly on the conduct of the police, and perhaps some hon. Gentlemen may say— my noble Friend has said so—it was not fit for a person in the situation of the Chief Commissioner of Police to communicate with the Press. [Lord ELCHO: I did not say so. I said to censure the arrangements of the War Office.] Well, censuring the arrangements—my noble Friend puts his own construction on it. The paragraph simply says, that Sir Richard Mayne denies that what is charged against him is true, or that it was done by his authority. It may be said to be wrong for any official to communicate with a newspaper. That, however, is a course which hon. Gentlemen on every side of the House adopt when any imputation is wrongfully cast upon them. If it is said to be wrong that a Member of the Government should communicate with the Press, I can only say, I have heard the noble Viscount justify the propriety of sending papers to the newspapers before they were delivered to Members of the House; and therefore I think it can hardly be said that there is any great blame to be cast on any one for taking the opportunity of contradicting, in the way my noble Friend quoted, an accusation unjustly preferred against the police. Let me further say, there is not the slightest soreness on the part of Sir Richard Mayne in consequence of anything that may have been done by the War Office. My noble Friend has said, that it was usual upon such occasions for arrangements to be made by the War Office and the Horse Guards. That may be so; but if Sir Richard Mayne had been told by the Home Secretary that he need not pay any attention to Hyde Park, he would have said something like, "I am very much obliged to you, as I shall have four hundred constables to place elsewhere." As no communication was made to him that any departure from the ordinary course would be made, Sir Richard Mayne felt it to he his duty to act as he had always acted upon such occasions. Lest there should be any mistake, I will read what was written by Sir Richard Mayne to the gentleman connected with The Times newspaper, and which led to the paragraph which my noble Friend has quoted. Sir Richard Mayne wrote— 1415
With reference to the just observations in The Times report this morning (page 11) of the people having been kept at too great a distance from the line of the procession in Hyde Park, as regards the Police interfering for that purpose, it was contrary to my express orders, and I have suspended the Superintendent of Police who had charge of that part of the line, although he pleads in extenuation that he acted on the urgent demand of Colonel M'Murdo that he should place the Police at the distance along the hurdles. My intention was that so much ground only should be kept as would allow room for the Royal cortége and the columns of Volunteers at the side. I was much annoyed on coming into the Park to find that the Police were acting contrary to my orders, the effect being to deprive many thousands of all sight of the Princess, and to deprive the Royal party of the joyous cheering there had been elsewhere at every point. I never witnessed such continued hearty acclamations of welcome as were given on Saturday from countless multitudes of all classes, from the Borough along the whole of the route. You may take any notice you think proper of the arrangements in the Park.Thanking the House for its indulgence, I need hardly say my only object has been this—that when an individual, be his station high or he it low, has been aspersed, he should have an opportunity of having his case fairly stated; and I know, that although we are sometimes governed by political feeling, yet, when it is a question of justice and honour, the House of Commons may safely be trusted to deal with it.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYAlthough in strict right I have no right to address the House again, yet, perhaps, it will permit me to say a few words upon this subject. I must, in the first place, express my regret that conflicting orders should have been given by the civil and military departments, and I must also express my regret that my noble Friend has thought it worth while to bring the subject before the House. Sir Richard Mayne was influenced by a feeling which does him great credit—a desire that his arrangements should be such as to enable the largest number of persons to see the procession and to welcome the Princess. The military authorities appear to have taken a different view of the occasion as regarded Hyde Park. Sir Richard Mayne understood that the arrangements as to the Volunteers were, that they should form a line on each side through which the Royal procession would pass, and that a space beyond would be kept clear by hurdles, sufficient to prevent the pressure of the crowd, up to which the general public would be allowed to come, and thus obtain a comparatively near view of the Prin- 1416 cess. The military authorities thought it should be treated as a parade-ground, and therefore required a much larger space to be kept clear. I am sorry there was this misunderstanding, and that there was not a better previous concert, but I have no doubt that in future means will be taken to prevent the recurrence of any such misunderstanding.