[BILL 22.] COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 5 March 1863)

§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, he was sorry not to see the hon. Member for Evesham (Sir H. Willoughby) in his place, because that hon. Gentleman had given notice of two Amendments—one limiting the operation of Clause 1, relating to minors' accounts, to cases where there was an intention to close a savings bank; and the other empowering the trustees of savings banks about to be closed to compensate their officers out of surplus funds. He was prepared to agree to the second Amendment, but he could not accept the first, and he hoped the hon. Member would take an opportunity of moving the recommittal of the Bill for the purpose of bringing the question under consideration. Meanwhile, he had himself two Amendments to propose, the object of which was to take securities against any possibility of abuse, and to insure, that while they gave a free power of transfer of minors' and trustees' accounts between the Post Office savings banks and the old savings-banks, the withdrawal of the money should still continue subject to all the restraints now in force. He would, therefore, move the addition of the following words:— 1116 But in the case of minors, the money so transferred shall not be withdrawn, except with the consent of the Postmaster General, or of any two trustees or managers of the savings bank to which the transfer is made, until the minor shall have attained the age at which it might have been withdrawn under the rules of the savings bank from which it was transferred, a note whereof shall be made on the said certificate.

MR. HENLEY
said, He was afraid the Amendment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not satisfy the hon. Member for Evesham.

§ MR. AYRTON
said, that what the hon. Member for Evesham wanted was that the conditions upon which the money of minors was now invested in savings banks should be strictly and literally performed. As the Bill stood, the danger was that third parties would seek a transfer to one of the Post Office savings banks for the purpose of getting the money out on easier conditions; thus, perhaps, defeating the object for which the money was originally deposited.

§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
explained that the conditions for the withdrawal of money standing upon trust and joint accounts wore now laid down by statute, and the Postmaster General took them all over upon himself. The Postmaster General was surrounded by officers fully competent to apply the provisions of the general law to each particular case. With regard to the case of minors, he was prepared to render it obligatory that a note should be made on transfer certificates in those cases where the money of minors could not be withdrawn till the minors reached a certain age.

§ MR. AYRTON
said, that in the absence of the hon. Member for Evesham (Sir H. Willoughby), he had to move the addition of a proviso— That trustees of savings banks which are desirous of closing shall have power to compensate their officers out of any separate surplus fund that may belong to any such savings banks, with the consent of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt.

§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, that as soon as the system was well on its legs, he proposed to bring it under the review of the House by moving an annual Vote for the expense of carrying it out, and it would be the business of the House to see that the receipts and expenditure were so nearly balanced that the public was not unduly burdened. He believed that the system would turn out to he entirely self-supporting.

§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, he had to move a new clause, enacting— (Appointment of Managers to sign Transfer Certificates.) That the trustees of any savings bank, at a meeting called for that purpose, may appoint any number of managers to sign transfer certificates; and that the signatures of any two of such managers to a transfer certificate should be a sufficient authority to the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt to transfer the amount set forth in such certificate; provided that a list of such managers, with their signatures, certified by two trustees, should have been previously deposited with the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt. In some cases the number of trustees of savings banks had been reduced to as few as three, and it was inconvenient to require transfer certificates to be signed by two of that number. That difficulty would be obviated by enabling trustees to empower certain managers to sign the certificates. The trustees would remain responsible for the signatures of the managers they might depute.

MR. HENLEY
said, he thought that such a clause would be attended with inconvenience, inasmuch as it would allow the trustees to run themselves out. He was of opinion that it would be better to compel the trustees, when they were reduced to a very few, to increase their number. If out of three trustees remaining two of them were to die, he was at a loss to know what was to become of the management.

§ THE CHANCELLOR of THE EXCHEQUER
said, the question raised by the right hon. Gentleman was no doubt an important one, but it was one that more properly belonged to the general question of the old savings banks. He thought it would be desirable at some future time to take into consideration the whole question of the management of the old savings banks. It would not do in the present 1118 Bill to deal with the constitution of the old savings banks.

MR. HENLEY
said, his objection was that the clause proposed would give facilities to parties to avoid doing that which under other circumstances they would be obliged to do.