HC Deb 25 June 1863 vol 171 cc1470-90

SUPPLY considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

(1.) Original Question again proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £236,016, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1864, for Public Education in Ireland, under the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland.

MR. HENNESSY

said, that the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland, in objecting to the introduction of the English system of education into Ireland on the ground that it would facilitate proselytism, by enabling wealthy Protestant landowners to establish schools where there were no children of their own denomination to attend them, bad entirely misunderstood the character of its system. According to a cardinal rule of the Privy Council, no one was allowed to receive a grant unless he could show that there were within the area of the proposed school a sufficient number of children and families of the labouring poor of the same religious denomination as himself; and in one case, to his knowledge, a grant was refused to a gentleman who desired to establish a Catholic school in a Protestant district, because he could not satisfy the requirements of the Privy Council in that respect. In short, the English system was carefully guarded against any attempt at proselytism, and no instance of its failure in that respect had come to his knowledge. The Attorney General dwelt very much upon the increase in the number of scholars, which had risen from 355,320 in 1843 to 812,000 in the present year, but he had not referred to the cost. In 1843, the sum voted by that House was £55,000. This year they were asked to vote £305,000. According to the rate of expenditure in 1843, that sum ought to educate not 812,000 but 2,000,000 pupils. In Ireland the grant had increased much faster than the number of children. In England, within the last year or two, the grant had declined, but the number of children attending the schools had increased, The decrease of the grant last year was £38,000, but there was an increase of 28,000 in the attendance. In Ireland there was an increase of 320 in the number of pupils and of £16,000 in the grant. The increase in the number of schools in Ireland was 180, or one for every two pupils; while in England, with an increase of 28,000 pupils, the increase in the number of schools was not more than 20 or 30. It might be asked why-Irish Members should complain, as long as their country derived the benefit of the excessive expenditure upon the system of national education. In a debate a few night previously, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when asked for money to promote works of a practical character, such as arterial drainage and the improvement of inland navigation, replied that he had no money to spare for such purposes, as the nation already bestowed £300,000 a year upon Irish education. Clearly, therefore, it devolved upon Irish Members to show in what manner the money which the Government was willing to expend in Ireland could be most beneficially applied. In the comparatively deserted state of the House it would interfere with the progress of public business if he were to press to a division the Motion of which he had given notice for a reduction of the Vote by £100,000. He therefore begged to withdraw it; but he hoped the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary, before the Vote was agreed to, would let the House know whether he concurred with the views which his Colleague the Attorney General for Ireland had expressed.

MR. LONGFIELD

said, he felt, that after the lengthened debate which had taken place on a previous evening, and in the present state of the attendance, the time was inopportune for bringing forward his Motion for such a relaxation of the rules of the National Board of Education in Ireland as should permit a number of schools now in existence and languishing for want of funds to partake in the benefits conferred by the grant. He begged to give notice of his intention to bring forward that subject early next Session.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, it was not for him to state whether he agreed with every word of the very full and able statement of his learned Colleague the Attorney General; but the general views expressed by that right hon. Gentleman on the subject of National Education received his entire concurrence. It was perfectly true that there was a small increase, about £16,000, over the Vote of the previous year; but that, as he had explained to the House when introducing the Vote, was principally owing to the natural increase in the salaries of teachers; and he was sure the Committee would feel that those public servants were not overpaid for the duties they discharged. He should be very glad to see money voted for the purpose of improving the arterial drainage of Ireland, or the agricultural system of that country generally, and all efforts in that direction would receive his cordial support; but he should be sorry to see the grants for education stopped in order to promote works of arterial drainage, on which undertakings large sums had been expended within the last thirty years. To educate the poor was to contribute in the best manner to the material improvement of the country in which they resided. After the ample discussion which had already taken place, he hoped there would be no objection to agree to the Vote.

SIR FREDERICK HEYGATE

said, there were only three systems of education possible in Ireland—the voluntary, the denominational, and the mixed systems. The voluntary system might succeed in the case of the rich, but as regarded the poor it was not to be depended upon. The introduction of the denominational system into such a country as Ireland was exposed to the great drawback that it brought up children from their earliest infancy with feelings of hostility one towards the other, and taught them to view with suspicion and dislike those with whom necessarily they had to mingle in after life. The national system was by no means perfect, but in the present circumstances of Ireland no other system appeared to hold out commensurate advantages.

MR. LEFROY

said, he disapproved the principle on which the grant was made, but he was not prepared to sacrifice the practical advantages which would be entailed by the adoption of a Motion such as that of the hon. Member for the King's County. He would, however, ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland to take into account the hardships which were inflicted on the great body of the Protestant clergy and laity in that country by excluding them from participation in the benefits of the grant. In self-defence they had been compelled to found at their own charges the Church Education Society, which proved its value by the increase in the number of its scholars and the amount of its funds. That the education it afforded was widely beneficial must be evident from the fact that in a single diocese 8,000 Dissenters and 1,600 Roman Catholics were included in the return of attendances. Young men with limited incomes and labourers from their scanty earnings contributed freely to the funds of the society, in order to perpetuate its valuable labours. He hoped a time would yet come when its exertions would receive, as they abundantly deserved, the recognition of the State.

MR. MONSELL

said, that to give a portion of the grant to the Church Education Society would be to give a premium to proselytism. He wished, however, to call attention to a point connected with the increase in the salaries paid to masters In 1843 the amount voted for this purpose was £34,000; in 1863 it had increased to £205,000. In the year 1843 the amount paid for inspection was £5,000; in the present year it was £22,400. He wished to ask the right hon. Baronet why the convent schools were excluded from the benefit of the increase in the grant to other schools. That increase had risen from £10 to £42 in the female schools, or 400 per cent, while for the convent schools the amount remained the same. All the authorities agreed in affirming the value of the secular instruction given in the convent schools. He believed that no pupil teachers were allowed to be taken in the convent schools. Some relaxation of that rule was much required.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, the grant to convent schools was between £7,000 and £8,000. He could bear testimony to the admirable education given in these schools. The question of permitting pupil teachers of these schools to be teachers in other schools was, he believed, about to be discussed by the National Board. If the Board should determine that the convent schools should take pupil teachers, they would, of course, receive an increased allowance on that account.

MR. MONSELL

said, he thought it hard, that while the allowances to other schools had increased 400 percent, there had been no increase to the convent schools.

MR. LEFROY

said, that the only justification for excluding Church schools was that institutions like the convent schools were also shut out. They were, he believed, schools for Catholics exclusively. He must also deny that the Church Education Society was a proselytizing society. The religious teaching afforded in their schools was confined to the reading of the Scriptures. The charge of proselytism would be more applicable to the convent schools, if indeed they had any Protestant pupils.

MR. MONSELL

said, he could assure the hon. Gentleman that very many Protestant children attended the convent schools, and that scrupulous care was taken against proselytism.

THE O'CONOR DON

said, he wished to ask for an explanation of the Vote of £100 for a classical instructor for special class teachers.

MR. O'REILLY

said, he wished for some explanation with respect to the model farm at Glasnevin. It appeared that for the farm steward an item of £150 was asked; for the ploughman, £31; for drainage, permanent live stock, manure, seeds, and plants, £500; for wages of servants, £80; and for rent, £723. The total agricultural expenditure—he omitted the expenditure for teaching—was £1,484, and the total probable amount of receipts was set down at £1,600, which would leave a probable profit of £116. Now, it was admitted that any reasonable agricultural returns would yield a profit equal to the rent. But if the whole net profit in that case was £116, and the rent £723, that model farm must be a model set up to be avoided.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he considered the Vote altogether unsatisfactory. Whilst there had been a diminution of £38,117 in the education Vote for England, there had been an increase in the Vote for Ireland to the extent of £15,112. He objected to voting money taken from the taxes of the United Kingdom for high-class literary schools. Schools maintained at the public expense ought to be for the use of the children of the working classes. There were not less than nineteen agricultural schools in Ireland, for which it was proposed to vote £5,516. Those agricultural schools were of no benefit to the public, though they might be to the landlords in providing stewards for them. [A laugh.] His hon. Friend (Mr. Bagwell) laughed, but perhaps he would not think it unfair to put his hand in his pocket to pay for the education of his own steward. He begged to move the reduction of the Vote by £5,516 for agricultural schools.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £230,500, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1864, for Public Education in Ireland, under the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland."—(Mr. Williams.)

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he hoped that his hon. Friend would not press his Amendment. He was very glad his hon. Friend had been dining when they were discussing the point the other night. In that state of the House (about eighteen Members only were present) he was sure his hon. Friend would not like to gain his point. In answer to the question of the hon. Member for Roscommon (the O'Conor Don), he had to state that the classical teacher was required for a special class of pupil teachers and others, and on a former occasion had received the sanction of the Committee. As to the question raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Longford (Mr. O'Reilly), it was quite true that the agricultural school at Glasnevin had been rather an expensive establishment, but expensive only on account of the outlay necessary for the education of a vast number of persons who were trained there. It was well known that private gentlemen derived considerable advantage from the education which was given in those agricultural schools. The rent of the Glasnevin farm was rather high, because it was close to Dublin, but it grew excellent crops and instructed a large number of persons. He thought £50 a year was about the outside of the expenditure upon draining, which was done gradually year by year, for the purpose of instructing the pupils, who were made to do the work and understand it. Five acres were drained each year, and the whole of the draining and ploughing was done by the pupils. He had a Return of the occupations of those who had been educated in the agricultural model school at Glasnevin from 1858 to 1861; they were 175 in number, and it was not at all true, as stated on a former occasion by the hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. Bernal Osborne), that they were all emigrating. Of the 175 pupils who had been educated between 1858 and 1861, 68 were farming their own land at home, 41 were land stewards or assistant land agents, 3 agricultural teachers, 9 garden assistants, 10 national school teachers, 9 had gone to Jamaica and Antigua, 14 were clerks in the offices of land agents, 5 had gone to the Cape of Good Hope and Australia, and only 16 had withdrawn from the establishment from delicate health and other causes. Glasnevin was rather expensive; but when they looked to the benefits derived, there was, he thought, no hon. Gentleman from Ireland, or from England either, who would wish to deprive the public of the advantages which unquestionably had flowed from the establishment of those schools. There had already been a diminution of £300 in the Vote in deference to the desire expressed last Session, and further reductions would be made in subsequent years. Besides, the system being now in good working trim, and no new agricultural buildings requiring to be erected, the Vote would of itself diminish.

MR. DAWSON

said, he thought it of the utmost importance to the welfare of Ireland, as essentially an agricultural country, that the agricultural schools should be supported. There might be some faults connected with them, but they had produced very valuable results. The hon. and gallant Member for Longford the other evening had referred to some of the better classes in Ireland who had availed themselves of the schools supported by public grant for the education of their sons. With others of his class, he believed the late Mayor of Derry had done so, not to save his pocket, but from the knowledge that a very superior education was to be got there. He considered that a most laudable example in supporting a system which he believed would be abundantly productive of the greatest blessings to all classes in Ireland.

MR. HENNESSY

said, it was alleged by those who supported the system of national education in Ireland that it was for the children of poor parents, but in truth the schools were resorted to by the children of mayors of towns, solicitors, and others, who were able to pay for their education. Such a system of education would not be tolerated in England for a moment. He believed, that if the case of a national school, similar to that just mentioned, had occurred in England, the Privy Council would have withdrawn their grant.

MR. O'REILLY

said, he could assure the Committee he was as anxious as any one for the success of the agricultural schools. He had visited the Glasnevin school with great pleasure. But he must call attention to the fact of the absence of profit upon them. They could not be model farms if they did not show a reasonable profit. The fact was more remarkable in this instance, because the labour cost nothing.

MR. M'MAHON

said, he thought that if any one part of the Irish system of education was defensible, it was that which related to the agricultural schools of the country, for there was in Ireland a great want of agricultural knowledge. He could not understand why the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. W. Williams) should have allowed £122,000 to be voted for science and art, and yet refused the grant for agricultural schools. If it was fit that cheap designers should be had from the schools of science and art, why should they not get cheap stewards from the agricultural schools in Ireland? In France there were agricultural schools in every district, and hence the great progress of agriculture in that country. In Ireland, till of late, they had been importing Scotch stewards; but these almost invariably ruined every gentleman who had employed them. Let them ask any English or Irish farmer if they ever knew of a Scotch steward who bad not always failed to attain his end. He trusted that the right hon. Baronet would not yield to clamour against the Tote for agricultural schools. With regard to the Hydrographical and Navigation schools, he thought that, instead of there being only seven of those institutions altogether, there ought to be one established in every principal seaport of the country.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

submitted that there were no agricultural schools in England or Scotland supported by public grants, and did not see any cause for a distraction in favour of Ireland. If the Chief Secretary would promise to make a gradual reduction in the respect pointed out, he Would withdraw his Amendment, but not otherwise. He also wished to call attention to the item of £7,500 for mistresses to teach the higher branches of needlework, which he thought was very extravagant.

MAJOR HAMILTON

said, that in answer to the Member for Wexford he had hitherto believed that a great boon was granted to Ireland by sending over to that country good Scotchmen with capital. The hon. and learned Member appeared, however, to think they had hitherto been sending Scotchmen there with no capital. He could tell the hon. and learned Member how that evil might easily be avoided. Let him vote with the hon. Member for Lambeth that no public money be voted for any purpose whatever in Ireland, and then he might be certain that no Scotchman without capital Would go there.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he had so high an opinion of Irish talent that he had engaged an Irishman on his own estate instead of a Scotchman. With respect to the Vote for teachers of the higher branches of needlework—a matter which the hon. Member for Lambeth could not possibly understand—these teachers received only £10 a year each, an amount surely to which exception could hardly be taken fairly. If the hon. Member examined the Educational Votes for England, he would find items there for agricultural schools as well as for instruction in kitchen and laundry work.

Question put, and negatived.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(2.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £12,028, be granted to Her Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1864, for the Expenses of the National Gallery, including the purchase of Pictures.

MR. CONINGHAM

said, he rose to move that the Vote be reduced by £1,400 in the item of incidental and travelling expenses. He regarded the interference of the Government for the support of science and art as injurious rather than beneficial. The Vote for the National Gallery had been immortalized in Mr. May's able work on Constitutional History. Formerly an agent was employed, at a salary of £300, to travel over the Continent in order to purchase pictures for the National Gallery. A division was taken in that House against the item of £300 for that gentleman's salary, and the item was struck off. But an item of £600 remained on the Estimates for the payment of travelling expenses; and there was good reason to believe, that although that House had struck off the item for the German travelling agent, that agent was still employed by the authorities of the National Gallery, and remunerated out of the sum voted for travelling expense. That sum stood before at £600; but it had since risen to £2,000; and what he wished to know was, how that amount was made up, what proportion of it went for travelling expenses, and how much for incidental and other expenses. Unless he received a satisfactory explanation as to the mode in which the money was applied, it would be his duty to take the sense of the Committee on his Amendment. The authorities of the National Gallery were in the habit of lending pictures to other public institutions, but the pictures so lent were not of such a character as was likely to improve the public taste. In the conclude- ing paragraph of the Report appended to the Vote it was stated that a regulation had been introduced providing that "with the exception of dusting and wiping," no operation coming under the description of varnishing, cleaning, or restoring should be undertaken without the sanction of the trustees, to be communicated by the keeper. That regulation was the result of constant protests made in that House. He would move, as an Amendment, that the item be reduced by £1,400.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Item of £2,000, for Incidental Travelling Expenses, Agency, &c., be reduced by the sum of £1,000."—(Mr. Coningham.)

MR. PEEL

said, the sum of £2,000 was not intended merely for travelling expenses and agencies, but also for all the temporary and miscellaneous expenses connected with the National Gallery, such as the carriage and framing of the pictures; and the amount asked could not, therefore, be considered extravagant. With regard to travelling expenses and agencies, no larger sum than £650 was allowed, and the actual expenditure did not generally exceed £500.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, that the total Vote was larger by £4,075 than the Vote of last year, and the expenditure was principally for the purchase of pictures.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, he thanked the hon. Member for Brighton for calling attention to the item, because the expenditure ought to be more accurately explained in the Estimates. He conceived that the sum allowed to the travelling agent was too large, when considered in connection with the amount dispensed in the purchase of pictures.

MR. CONINGHAM

said, that he originally objected to any sum being devoted to travelling expenses, for he thought it a perfect delusion to send all over Europe a travelling agent to purchase pictures. When the agent arrived in a continental town, it was said that the man with the purse of the British taxpayers was come to purchase pictures, and the pictures rose 100 to 200 per cent in value. He thought that the gentlemen in charge of the national pictures were utterly blind; at least, they never saw the merits of a picture until it got into the hands of some dealer, who asked 500 per cent for his bargain. For instance, a picture was purchased the other day at Christie's for £500 or £600, which was at the sale of the former proprietor knocked down for a trifling sum. Why did not the trustees of the National Gallery get the picture when it could be obtained cheap? Nevertheless, after the explanation given by the right hon. Gentleman, he should withdraw his Amendment.

MR. GREGORY

said, he thought that his hon. Friend the Member for Brighton was too great a lover of art to make any serious objection to that particular item. It was perfectly clear, that as the vast majority of the Italian pictures would not come to the English, the English must go to the pictures, and the pictures could not be obtained except by means of agents. Sir Charles Eastlake, when he went abroad, did not raise the price of pictures. That gentleman visited all the galleries, ascertained the value of any pictures that it might be desirable to add to the national collection, and easily found an agent to purchase them whenever the opportunity occurred. He was thus enabled to make a good selection at a cheaper rate than by public competition. An example of that was afforded by the picture purchased at Christie's, to which the hon. Gentleman alluded. If the English agent had seen that picture in the gallery in Italy, he would probably have got it for the sum for which it was originally sold—he thought £200. If his hon. Friend went to the National Gallery, and saw two or three pictures there purchased by Sir Charles Eastlake last year, he would be satisfied that it was fortunate that the country had a person of so much tact, judgment, and knowledge to undertake the selection of the national pictures.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. MITFORD

said, he would recommend that greater facilities should be given to the public to see the national pictures. On the four public days in the week the Gallery was so crowded that it was impossible to see the paintings with any comfort or advantage, and he would suggest that on the two remaining days, devoted to students, such of the public as chose to pay sixpence or a shilling for admission should be allowed to enter. He thought the students would probably derive great advantage from such an arrangement, as many might succeed in finding purchasers for the copies they were engaged in making.

MR. COWPER

said, he concurred with the hon. Gentleman in thinking it was desirable there should be some quiet days, when those who took a special interest in pictures might find themselves in the Gallery undisturbed by a crowd. He did not, however, believe that that advantage would be effected by exacting on certain days the payment of sixpence or a shilling, because he had observed that exhibitions at which such a payment was exacted were frequently very densely thronged. The matter, however, was one which the trustees might fairly take into their consideration.

MR. MITFORD

said, those other exhibitions which the right hon. Gentleman referred to as being thronged, though money was paid for admission to them, were not open gratuitously four days in the week, as was the case with the National Gallery.

MR. CONINGHAM

contended, that it would be perfectly easy, taking the pictures at the National Gallery seriatim, to show that a very large number had been purchased by Sir Charles Eastlake, which ought never to have been bought for that institution, while others might have been purchased for a much more reasonable amount than the sums given for them. It was, however, to the credit of Sir Charles Eastlake that he seemed to have profited by the discussions on the subject of the National Gallery which had taken place in that House.

MR. HEYGATE

said, he thought the rules which regulated the class of pictures to be bought for the National Gallery ought to be made somewhat more elastic, and that Sir Charles Eastlake ought to be permitted to buy from time to time pictures illustrative of cotemporary history possessing national interest and of intrinsic merit.

MR. PEEL

said, there was no rule precluding the purchase of modern pictures. Paintings, the work of Gainsborough and Sir J. Reynolds, had, for instance, been bought during the previous year.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(3.) £1,500, British Historical Portrait Gallery.

MR. CONINGHAM

complained of the absence of detailed explanation of the Vote. He knew of pictures of great interest being entirely overlooked within the last few months by the authorities of the Gallery. In his opinion, none but model works of the highest class should be purchased for the galleries of the nation.

MR. PEEL

promised to consider whether fuller information could not be furnished.

MR. BRISCOE

said, that it was, in his opinion, a complete misapplication of the public money to purchase works which were a disgrace to the gallery. Only works of the highest art out to be bought for such institutions.

MR. LOCKE

said, it was in no degree the object for which the gallery was formed to elevate art. It would be utterly impossible to collect togeher portraits of all sorts of characters, of all sorts of appearances, possessing great artistic merit.

MR. BRISCOE

said, his remarks referred as well to the previous Vote as to that immediately under discussion.

Vote agreed to; as were also the following:—

(4.) £3,141, to complete the sum for Magnetic and Meteorological Observations, &c.

(5.) £500, Royal Geographical Society.

(6.) £1,000, Royal Society.

(7.) £4,200, Bermudas.

(8.) £4,288, Ecclesiastical Establishment, British North American Provinces.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, he wanted to know whether the charge was in process of diminution, or whether vacancies were being filled up as they occurred.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

stated that for many years past the Vote had been in course of diminution, the salaries only continuing for the lives of the present holders.

Vote agreed to; as was also—

(9.) £1,438, Indian Department, Canada.

(10.) £17,121, to complete the sum for British Columbia.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he noticed that there was a reduction in the Vote of £9,000 for British Columbia that year. The colony, however, was highly prosperous, and therefore he thought it time that the whole was at an end.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

said, that almost the whole of the Vote had been incurred in the first starting of the colony; and although only a young colony, the time had already arrived when she paid her own expenses. The Royal Engineers were about to be recalled.

MR. CAIRD

said, he wished to ask whether it was intended to appoint; a separate resident Governor.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

said, his noble Friend the Secretary of State was about to bring in a Bill for the Government of British Columbia, and he did not wish to anticipate the full statement of the intentions of the Government which would then be made,

Vote agreed to.

(11.) £2,500, Vancouver's Island,

MR. W. WILLIAMS

asked whether the Vote was the last payment.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

said, it included the last farthing which was to be paid to the Hudson's Bay Company. An item of £5,000 was in dispute, and, to avoid long and expensive legal proceedings, it had been arranged to divide the amount and pay one-half.

MR. ALDERMAN SALOMON'S

asked, whether Vancouver's Island was now the absolute property of the Crown.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

said, it was so entirely.

Vote agreed to.

(12.) £21,745, to complete the sum for Governors, &c., West Indies, and other Colonies.

MR. M'MAHON

said, he would suggest that some means might be provided to reduce the number of governorships in these small islands. They might as well pay the Chairmen of Vestries of large metropolitan parishes, which were of more importance than some of the Colonies.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

asked for explanations as to the Governors of Jamaica.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

said, that last year a very wise arrangement was made, by which a very old and bad debt due by Jamaica was converted into a fixed perpetual annuity, out of which, after next July, the whole salary of the Governors would be paid. As to reducing the number of Governors, however small and insignificant these islands were, they formed separate and distinct communities, and must each have some officer to administer their affairs.

Vote agreed to; as was also—

(18.) £9,000, Stipendiary Justices, West India Colonies.

(14.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £10,230, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1864, for the Civil Establishments on the Western Coast of Africa.

SIR FRANCIS BARING

said, he wished for some explanation with regard to the Vote, seeing that £2,000 only appeared in the items as the cost of the civil establishments of Lagos. Lagos was a small island of no consequence in itself, but it was important from its position in, reference to the trade with Africa. If they were anxious to get rid of the iniquitous slave trade, the most effectual way was to encourage legitimate trade. They, however, had raised the taxation upon the trade of that port from £3,000 to £16,000, and this proceeding was, he thought, most hostile to the best interests of Africa, for it placed the trade at Lagos in a most uncomfortable position, and indeed trade was being driven from that place to another port. The governor of Lagos had since laid claim to the second port—for which claim, however, it appeared there was no foundation; but he could only speak from imperfect information upon, the matter, as the Government had refused to furnish the papers in reference to it. He also desired to express his disgust at learning that a portrait of the Queen had been presented by one of Her Majesty's agents to the King of Dahomey, the most notorious slave-dealer and murderer in Africa, at the very time that he was preparing for an attack on Abbeokuta. Other transactions of a most unfortunate character had taken place, which would lead the people to believe that we were favourable to the King of Dahomey and his barbarities. Our object on the coast of Africa was not territorial aggrandisement, but the spread of civilization and the stoppage of the slave trade. But grabbing at every hit of land was not the way to attain that object. Our policy ought to be to encourage the self-government of the Africans, to support those who were willing to make treaties with us to put an end to the slave trade, but not in any shape or in any way to exhibit an inclination to take possession of all the land we could lay our hands on. He concluded by moving the omission from the Vote of the item of £2,000 for the establishments at Lagos.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Item of £2,000, for the Civil Establishments at Lagos, be omitted from the proposed Vote."—(Sir Francis Baring.)

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

said, he fully admitted the right of the right hon. Gentleman to draw attention to a subject in which he had always shown so much real interest, but he hardly expected that he would have taken so much pains to object to so small a Vote in aid of an establishment which was only in its second year of existence, and which, if it were to extend at all, might fairly apply for some small assistance from Parliament. Lagos was required for the purpose of putting down the slave trade, and of establishing a legitimate commerce, and the Colonial Office was doing its best to administer its affairs in a satisfactory manner, but it was not surprising that the House of Commons should be asked for some small assistance in starting the settlement on its career. Hitherto, of course, the expenditure had been of an exceptional kind, and was not to be reckoned as the ordinary expenditure of the local Government. There was every reason to believe that from that time forward Lagos would be able to pay its own way. The accounts now received were of the most favourable kind, and there could be little doubt that both financially and commercially Lagos would turn out before long the most successful British settlement on the coast of Africa. The worst thing to be said of it was, that it would necessarily cause a considerable loss of European life; but he hoped that when money had been spent in paving and draining, the danger to health would be much diminished. He had no reason to think that the customs duties would be unfavourable to commerce. They were very moderate in amount, and they would be expended in promoting security to life and property, which were the very soul of trade. He regretted as much as the right hon. Baronet the collision that had occurred, but it arose in consequence of a dispute between the establishment and some traders who preferred the wild government of a chief who imposed no taxes to the government of the British and the imposition of moderate customs duties, which were expended to the signal advantage of the colony; and when a peaceful mission, consisting of eleven white soldiers and a handful of black policemen, was sent out, they were set upon by some of the native troops and several killed. That was followed up by a great destruction of property, and other warlike acts, which rendered it necessary for the Lagos authorities to take active steps against the chief in question, and make an example of him. From the time they had had possession they had shown the greatest moderation. The chiefs of the place, seeing their moderation, thought they would tolerate anything, but they found themselves mistaken. With respect to Abbeokuta, he thought his right hon. Friend's fears were exaggerated. The ports of this district were blockaded for a time; no lives were lost, and in the end Abbeokuta came round, and complied with the demands required of her. With respect to Dahomey, it was not a British Colony, and he hoped it never would be. But he had no such fears as his right hon. Friend had expressed, that the king of that settlement would not yield to the representations that had been made to him. On the contrary, he was inclined to suspect that the conciliatory conduct pursued by Commodore Wilmot would have a better effect than his right hon. Friend seemed to anticipate. He hoped the Committee would agree to the Vote.

LORD ALFRED CHURCHILL

said, he considered that the Vote was a very fair one, and such as the Committee might very well agree to. The effect of the establishment of Lagos as a British Colony had been to put a decided check upon the slave trade on the West Coast of Africa, and he had no doubt that the financial results of the step would, before long, be very satisfactory, notwithstanding the establishment of a free port by the French at Porto Novo, and their rumoured advances into Dahomey. He was not at all disposed to look with jealousy upon the increase of French interests in that colony, as he thought it would, on the whole, have a beneficial and civilizing effect, although the slave trade undoubtedly was carried on under their auspices. He would add, that he thought that the missionaries at Abbeokuta were not altogether free from blame in reference to the differences between them and Governor Freeman.

MR. BUXTON

said, it would be a great mistake to disallow the Vote, as the possession of Lagos would materially aid in stopping the slave trade. The unfortunate circumstances which had recently occurred with reference to their relations with Abbeokuta, he attributed almost, if not entirely, to the injudicious conduct of Governor Freeman, who, he hoped, would be recalled forthwith. He thought that Commodore Wilmot had acted rightly in adopting a conciliatory tone towards the King of Dahomey; but he could not approve the statement in that gallant officer's despatch, that it would never do for the King to abolish human sacrifices at one blow. He also thought his conduct was reprehensible, in assisting, apparently without any protest, at the so-called "human sacrifices" of Dahomey. He concurred with the noble Lord (Lord A. Churchill) in thinking it would be a mistake to view the French establishment with jealousy; but they must not forget that the Emperor of the French had constituted France one of the slave-trading Powers of the world by the free emigration scheme on the coast of Africa.

MR. CAVE

said, the question was, whether any means of the kind adverted to by the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for the Colonies would really put an end to the slave trade. Nothing less would justify the sacrifice of European life entailed by that deadly climate. He considered that this was hopeless so long as, while attacking the slave trade with one hand, we gave it the greatest encouragement with the other. He believed that negotiations with savage chieftains was a a waste of time. Two envoys had been sent to the King of Dahomey, and one of those Gentlemen thought he had made a great impression by his statement of the value of the palm-oil trade in comparison with the slave trade. The King heard him very patiently, and then merely said that the slave trade was very profitable and that palm-trees took a long time to grow. Another envoy, who tried to induce the King to put an end to the barbarous massacre which every year took place, was promised a good position to see them. That was all the good done by these missions. With regard to the French settlements, he felt no jealousy of them, for there was room enough for all, but those settlements certainly did not conduce to the civilization of the people and the stoppage of the slave trade; for it was notorious that a virtual slave trade was carried on by the French themselves from both the West and East Coast of Africa. He should not oppose the Vote, for he thought that this small sum of money was well applied in teaching the natives the value of legitimate commerce and free labour; but as long as the price was sufficient to compensate for the risk run, it was not likely that the slave trade would be put down.

MR. LAYARD

said, he regretted to hear the remarks made upon Commodore Wilmot, who was an officer of great humanity and of strong religious feeling, and no man could have a stronger detestation of the slave trade and of the horrible "customs" of the King of Dahomey. Commodore Wilmot was not under instructions from the Government when he visited the King of Dahomey; but being there, he availed himself of the opportunity to urge upon the King to- stop the slave trade, and put an end to the massacres. He was in a very difficult position, having either to withdraw from Dahomey, and thereby give the King great offence, or remain at the capital during the performance of these rites, without being an actual witness of them. He strongly reprobated what took place, but thought it advisable to remain, and told the King that the British Government, would, no doubt, enter into some alliance with him if he would abolish the slave trade, and put an end to these horrible customs. The Government intended to follow up that attempt by Commodore Wilmot, and send another envoy to try to accomplish these objects. As to the Abbeokutans, who, in defiance of treaty, had again, engaged in the slave trade, the Government had strong ground of complaint against them. But there existed at Abbeokuta an influence adverse to British interests there, and the British Consul who had been sent there was sent back, with considerable indignity. The Abbeokutans had plundered the people of Lagos, and Governor Freeman was compelled to blockade the place. That blockade had now been raised, but the effect had been good, and he trusted that the people of Abbeokuta would henceforth see the expediency of maintaining good relations with us.

SIR FRANCIS BARING

, in reply, complained that not one word had been said in explanation of the expenditure at Lagos. As to the hostile influence said to exist at Abbeokuta, he presumed that the hon. Gentleman referred to the mission there, and he thought that in justice the defence made by the mission should be laid before Parliament. It was no wonder that the Consul was not graciously received by the Abbeokutans. They were well aware that Lagos was not taken possession of by our Government till after we had sent a Consul there; and they were afraid that if a Consul were allowed to remain in Abbeokuta, their fate would be like that of the people of Lagos.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

explained that the Vote was in general aid of the civil establishments at Lagos. The Bum asked was so small that there was little reason to object to the amount left at the disposal of the Governor.

MR. WHITE

said, that the revenue from Lagos was £16,000, and he should like to know how that revenue was distributed.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he wished to know what was the meaning of an item of £2,000 for a steamer, when the whole salaries of the Governor, Judge, and two other officers were only £2,280.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

explained, that the steamer was of essential service in the public service up the river.

Question put, and negatived.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

The following Votes were then agreed to:—

(15.) £5,602, St. Helena.

(16.) £700, Orange River Territory (Cape of Good Hope).

(17.) £5,000, British Kaffraria.

(18.) £960, Heligoland.

(19.) £4,286, Falkland Islands.

(20.) £4,850, to complete the sum for Labuan.

(21.) £300, Pitcaim's Islanders in Norfolk Island.

(22.) £26,622, Civil Establishment in New Zealand.

(23.) £5,000, Buildings at Cape York.

(24.) £6,720, to complete the sum for Emigration.

(25.) £116,543, to complete the sum for the Consular Establishments Abroad.

(26.) £71,054, to complete the sum for Establishments in China, Japan, and Siam.

(27.) £23,000, to complete the sum for Extraordinary Disbursements of Her Majesty's Embassies and Missions Abroad.

(28.) £30,000, to complete the sum for Special Missions, Diplomatic Outfits, &c., Colonial Officers and others.

(29.) £2,825, to complete the sum for Salaries of Third Secretaries at Her Majesty's Embassies and Missions Abroad.

MR. DODSON

observed, that in 1861 there were thirty-seven attaches paid out of the Consolidated Fund, and now the salaries of thirty-two others were asked for. He wished to know how many unpaid attaches there were, and where those others were attached. The Secretary of State had unlimited power to appoint unpaid attachés; and as long as the House was not called upon to vote money, it did not matter; but as they were called upon to grant Supply, they were entitled to information.

MR. LAYARD

said, the Vote was the consequence of a recommendation of the Committee which sat upon the diplomatic service about three years since. The new system certainly appeared to have contributed to the public advantage. Unpaid services were not generally desirable, and, he thought, not economical. The object in view was to reduce the number of attaches and to bring diplomacy into a profession. That could only be done by paying the members of the diplomatic service; and it had been decided, on mature consideration, that after a period of four years' service a salary of £150 should be paid to attaches, if they succeeded in passing a certain examination. There would be no objection to furnish information as to the number of attaches and secretaries to each embassy.

MR. DARBY GRIFFITH

said, he thought the value of the diplomatic service was very much reduced by the telegrams, which anticipated their despatches.

Vote agreed to.

(30.) £4,300, North American Boundary Commission.

MR. PEEL

, in reply to Mr. W. WILLIAMS, stated that the Commission had returned to this country, but they had not yet made their final Report.

Vote agreed to.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.