COMMITTEE.

HC Deb 07 July 1863 vol 172 cc347-53

Bill considered in Committee (Progress 3rd July).

(In the Committee.)

Clause 17 (Additional Licence Duty on fixed Engines).

Clause struck out.

MR. H. A. BRUCE moved a new clause in lieu thereof— The Salmon Fisheries Act shall be construed as if in the Schedule annexed to the Act of the 11th & 12th Vict., c. 92, there had been inserted instead of the Duties therein mentioned the Duties following (that is to say):—

	£
Bag nets	10
Fly nets	10
Stake nets or stake wiers (Scotch)	30
Head weirs	6
For every box, crib, cruive, or drum net in any weir for taking salmon or trout	10

SIR HERVEY BRUCE moved to add, at the end of the new clause, "Fly rods £2."

MAJOR GAVIN

considered the proposition most objectionable, as far as the public generally was concerned. It might do for the rich, but it would preclude the industrious classes generally from deriving any benefit whatever from it.

MR. MONSELL

said, that this Bill was intended to restore to the public the rights of which they were deprived in 1842—namely, the right of fishing. His hon. Friend the Member for Coleraine (Sir Hervey Bruce) now wished to introduce a provision the effect of which would be to prohibit the public from fishing.

MR. H. A. BRUCE

thought it was only fair that cotmen should pay a licence, as they would derive considerable benefit from the measure.

MR. M'MAHON

said, it was proposed by the hon. Baronet to punish rod-men forthwith for a problematical advantage which they might gain by the Commissioners duly exercising the powers about to be conferred on them. He thought the licence for rod-men should be reduced to 5s.

MR. HASSARD

was of opinion that the maximum sum should be imposed upon those men.

SIR HERVEY BRUCE

would be extremely sorry to propose any licence that would press upon the poor man. He should therefore be willing to withdraw his proposition.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause K (Additional Licence Duties on fixed Engines) agreed to, and added to the Bill.

MR. W. R. O. GORE

, after Clause 17, proposed to insert a clause— Magistrates paying licence duty, and being owners of land abutting on rivers or lakes in any district, may act and vote as ex-officio Members of any Board of Conservators elected for any sub-district.

Clause L (Magistrates paying Duty to be ex-officio Members of Board), agreed to, and added to the Bill.

MR. M'MAHON

proposed to insert, after Clause 32, new clause (Fixed Engines interfering with Navigation to be deemed Common Nuisances).

MR. H. A. BRUCE

said, the clause was unnecessary, inasmuch as one of the objects of the Bill was to declare fixed nets to be a nuisance.

Clause withdrawn.

MR. M'MAHON

then proposed a new clause (Courts may award Costs, 13 & 14 Vict., c. 88.)

Clause O agreed to, and added to the Bill.

SIR EDWARD GROGAN moved a new clause (Exception of Salmon or Trout, caught or kept for certain purposes)— Nothing in this Act contained shall apply to any person who shall catch or attempt to catch, or shall have in his possession, any salmon or trout for the purposes of artificial propagation, or other scientific purposes; and nothing in this Act contained shall prejudice the legal right of any owner to take materials from any stream.

Clause H agreed to, and added to the Bill.

MR. LEADER moved a clause (Hydraulic Machines), directing the application of a grating to any machine of this description, under a penalty of £50 for each offence, and £5 for each day.

Clause N agreed to, and added to the Bill.

LORD NAAS

proposed a clause providing that— No net shall be used For the capture of salmon or trout in any of the fresh water portions of rivers except by the owner of a several fishing, anything to the contrary notwithstanding contained in any of the acts now in force in Ireland.

MR. MONSELL

and Major GAVIN opposed the clause.

MR. H. A. BRUCE

considered that the clause would be most unjust towards the general public; and it would be carrying the protection of salmon to a most absurd extent if they were to prohibit all netting in rivers. He hoped the noble Lord would not press the clause.

MR. BERNAL OSBORNE

said, that cod-fishing was more destructive to salmon than bag nets, and therefore he was in favour of some provision of the nature proposed by the noble Lord being introduced into the Bill. He would, however, omit from the clause the exemption in favour of the owner of a several fishing.

MR. BAGWELL

said, the clause would have the effect of depriving a large number of people of rights which they had enjoyed for a great number of years.

MR. H. A. BRUCE

thought that all those matters ought to be left to the Commissioners, who no doubt would make such regulations as would give satisfaction to all parties concerned.

SIR WILLIAM SOMERVILLE

deprecated any measure which would have the effect of abolishing nets altogether.

LORD NAAS

said, he would withdraw the clause, but was of opinion that something ought to be done to restrict the rights to which his clause referred.

MR. MONSELL

said, he was quite willing that full power should be given to the Commissioners to regulate those rights.

Clause withdrawn.

MR. LONGFIELD moved a new clause (Weekly Close Time for Stake Nets, &c.).

Clause— (In addition to the weekly close time provided by Clause sixteen of this Act, the weekly close season for all stake nets, fly nets, and bag nets shall commence at six of the clock on Friday morning and continue until six of the clock on the following Monday morning,)—(Mr. Longfield,)—brought up, and read 1°.

MR. H. A. BRUCE

said, the proposition of the hon. Gentleman was inconsistent with the principle of the Bill.

SIR WILLIAM SOMERVILLE

said, that all other parties, except the owners of stake nets, were called on by this Bill to make concessions. He thought it only right, in order to make the Bill a fair compromise, that the owners of stake nets should make some sacrifice, and therefore he should support the clause; but he should at the same time suggest that the weekly close time should be sixty hours instead of seventy-two. That, he thought, would constitute a fair compromise.

MR. BLAKE

and Mr. MONSELL opposed the clause.

MAJOR GAVIN

thought the Bill would not be a good measure unless every stake net was done away with.

MR. BUTT

said, he should oppose the clause. There was a tendency amongst Members to assimilate this Bill by a side-wind to that introduced by the hon. and learned Member for Wexford (Mr. M'Mahon).

COLONEL DICKSON

said, that if his hon. Friend would consent to limit his clause to sixty hours as the weekly close time instead of seventy-two hours, the Committee would agree to it.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Clause be now read a second time."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 32; Noes 27: Majority 5.

Clause F added to the Bill.

SIR HERVEY BRUCE

thought that the clause agreed to was so great an innovation of the principle of the Bill, that he should be justified in moving that the Chairman report Progress. In the mean while the Government could consider whether, after this division, they would go on with the Bill.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, that the effect of the Motion would be to throw the Bill over to the next Session.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

SIR HERVEY BRUCE moved the following clause:—"Provided always, that nothing in this Act shall be construed as applying to bag nets erected and used in the sea before 1848."

Clause negatived.

SIR HERVEY BRUCE moved a new clause— Provided always that no person or persons having right of fishing in a river shall, under any circumstances, stretch a sweep net entirely across the said river, or have more than one net in the water at the same time; and for every such offence, or either of them, he or they shall, upon conviction, forfeit not more than £50, or less than £10.

MR. H. A. BRUCE

opposed the clause, believing that it would be an evasion of the principle already established by law.

MR. HERBERT

said, he had given notice of a clause upon this subject, which he should prefer to that of the hon. Baronet. He wished to lay down the principle that no nets should be stretched across a river beyond two-thirds of the width of the said river.

SIR HERVEY BRUCE

said, as the Committee appeared to prefer the clause of the hon. Member for Kerry to his, he should, with the leave of the House, withdraw it.

Clause withdrawn.

MR. HERBERT

then moved a clause— (Use of Nets in Rivers.) No person shall do the following things, or any of them, that is to say—

1. 1. Stretch, shoot, or draw any net across any 352 part of any river in such a manner as shall be detrimental to the free passage of fish.
2. 2. Shoot or draw any net more than two-thirds across the breadth of a river, such breadth to be measured or taken at the place where the net is used.
3. 3. Make stationary any draft or seine net by any means whatever

And any person acting in contravention of this section shall incur a penalty not less than two pounds and not exceeding ten pounds, and shall forfeit any net used by him, in contravention of this section; and such net may be seized by any person duly authorized to enforce the provisions of the Salmon Fisheries Acts.

MR. M'MAHON

thought the clause involved a principle so important that it should be deferred until the Report was brought up. The clause, as framed, would prevent any second party from stretching a net within 300 yards of another person's net, which he considered would be a monstrous infringement upon the liberty of fishing.

MR. H. A. BRUCE

said, the object of his right hon. Friend was to prevent the same person using two nets within a certain distance.

SIR GEORGE GREY

suggested that it would be in the power of the Commissioners to regulate those matters, and that any attempt to legislate upon such minute points would be attended with great difficulty.

Clause withdrawn.

MR. HERBERT

proposed a clause (Restriction of Bag Nets), empowering the Commissioners, under certain circumstances, to allow bag nets to be continued and used for a time not exceeding ten years from passing of the Act.

Clause (Restriction of Bag Nets,)—(Mr. Herbert,)—brought up, and read 1°.

MR. M'MAHON

opposed the clause.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Clause be now read a second time."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 21; Noes 54: Majority 33.

MR. BUTT moved a clause granting compensation to the owners of bag nets whose property was damaged by this Bill, in the same manner as compensation was provided under the former Act.

MR. H. A. BRUCE

said, it was not proposed to abolish bag nets on the sea coast. The prohibition was only confined to rivers and estuaries. The proposition of his hon. and learned Friend was far too wide, and he felt bound to oppose it.

Clause negatived.

MR. BUTT

proposed a clause, (Grating to be provided for Watercourses).

MR. SULLIVAN

said, if the clause was adopted as it was framed, it would totally destroy the mill-power of Ireland.

Clause withdrawn.

MR. H. A. BRUCE moved a Clause P (Construction of Act).

Clause agreed to.

MR. H. A. BRUCE

proposed a clause G (Alteration of Annual Close Time), by which the annual close time is extended from 124 to 168 days.

Clause agreed to.

On Question, that the Preamble be agreed to.

MR. BEAMISH

wished to express his personal thanks to the hon. Under Secretary for the Home Department (Mr. H. A. Bruce) for the great pains, patience, and ability he had displayed during the progress of the Bill.

LORD NAAS

also desired to express his satisfaction at the mode in which the hon. Gentleman conducted this Bill through the House.

Preamble agreed to.

House resumed.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered on Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 214.]