HC Deb 23 February 1863 vol 169 cc715-7
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

moved, "That the Committee of Public Accounts do consist of the following Members."

Motion made, and Question proposed.

MR. HENNESSY

moved to suspend the Standing Order relative to this Committee, with the purpose of adding to the Committee the names of Colonel Dunne and Lord Robert Montagu. He complained that no Irish Member had been nominated on the Committee, though the subject had attracted great attention in Ireland during the recess; and an impression prevailed there that ever since the Union the accounts of the United Kingdom had been so juggled that great injustice had been done to Ireland.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "the Standing Order relative to the number of the said Committee be suspended, —instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

hoped that the House would not allow the Standing Order to be disturbed. The hon. and learned Gentleman had divided the House several times on the question last year, and had always been defeated by large majorities. It was clear that the hon. Gentleman was confounding two distinct subjects—taxation and account; and, certainly, there could not be any allegation that injustice had been done to Ireland in the matter of accounts. [Mr. HENNESSY: Most certainly there is.] If that were the case, it was strange that not a single instance had been brought before the Committee during the whole time of its sittings. The question was one which had no local relation, and the members had been selected solely from their presumed acquaintance with the subject.

COLONEL DICKSON

said, that every word uttered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer showed the necessity of having an Irish Member on the Committee.

SIR GEORGE BOWYER

said, the people of Ireland were deeply interested in the subject to be considered by the Committee, and therefore it was only fair that one of their representatives should take part in the inquiry.

MR. BLAKE

assured the Chancellor of the Exchequer that there were several important defects in the mode of rendering public accounts in Ireland. He hoped the Amendment would be agreed to.

Captain STACPOOLE, Mr. MAGUIRE, and Lord CLAUD HAMILTON likewise supported the Amendment.

MR. KINNAIRD

saw no good reason for altering the constitution of the Committee, which appeared to him to be unobjectionable.

On Question, the House divided: — Ayes 46; Noes 21: Majority 25.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Sir Francis Baring be one of the Members of the said Committee."

MR. HENNESSY

said, he thought this was a case in which the minority ought to exercise their constitutional privilege, even though they might have to keep dividing till four or five o'clock in the morning. The Committee on Public Accounts had made several mistakes with respect to Irish finance. He moved the adjournment of the debate.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."

SIR FRANK CROSSLEY

appealed to the hon. Gentleman to give way. The minority ought to yield to the majority.

MR. MAGUIRE

begged to remind the hon. Baronet that his hon. Friend was only exercising his constitutional right. The responsibility must be thrown on the Government of their refusal to put one Irish Member on the Committee. It would only be a graceful and generous thing of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to yield to the unanimous wish of the Irish Members.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

insisted, that there was nothing local in the inquiries of the Committee. There was no objection to place an Irishman on the Committee. If there was a vacancy on the Committee, the question would be considered. At present, however, nine gentlemen had sat on the Committee, and it was desirable that they should be reappointed.

COLONEL DICKSON

would support his hon. Friend in every division which he might think proper to take in the en- deavour to obtain the appointment of an Irish Member upon this Committee.

COLONEL DUNNE

entertained the same feeling with regard to this appointment, though, as his name had been mentioned in connection with the Committee, he had hitherto neither voted nor spoken on the subject; but he now hoped that his hon. Friend would not persevere in his Motion.

LORD CLAUD HAMILTON

said, there was deep dissatisfaction throughout Ireland at the systematic exclusion of Irish Members from this sort of Committee; and it was suspected there that the Government adopted this course in revenge for the rejection of their candidates upon the hustings in Ireland.

On Question, the House divided: — Ayes 12; Noes 39: Majority 27.

Question again proposed, "That Sir Francis Baring be one of the Members of the said Committee."

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

had no doubt that an Irish Member would be found fit to act on the Committee if a vacancy occurred.

Question put, and negatived.

Question, "That Sir Francis Baring be one of the Members of the said Committee," put, and agreed to.

MR. EDWARD PLEYDELL BOUVERIE, Sir STAFFORD NORTHCOTE, Mr. PEEL, Mr. GEORGE CARR GLYN, Mr. COBDEN, Sir HENRY WILLOUGHBY, Mr. HOWES, and Mr. WALPOLE nominated other Members of the said Committee.