HC Deb 20 February 1863 vol 169 cc606-13
MR. HARVEY LEWIS

said, he rose to call the attention of the House to the great number of Railway schemes affecting the Metropolis (upwards of thirty) introduced in the present Session, and to ask the President of the Board of Trade what protection is afforded to the public interests in this matter by the Department over which he presides; and also to move for Copies of any Reports made to the Metropolitan Board of Works by their engineer, or other officers, upon the Railway and other Private Bills affecting the Metropolis, introduced during the present Session. Parliament had intrusted to the Metropolitan Board of Works very extensive powers, and many hon. Members who had inspected the results must admit that the system of main drainage did infinite credit to the Board and its officers. But schemes of another kind might destroy what had already been done, and mar the good effects to be expected from the great works which had already been carried out, if steps were not taken to control them. The subject demanded the attention of the Government, and he was at a loss to conceive what useful steps could be taken unless they were taken by the Government. If, at the commencement of railway enterprise, one uniform plan had been adopted controlling; the different schemes, the most direct and speedy means of communication would have been secured and a great waste of money would have been avoided. A new phase of railway enterprise, however, was now presented in respect of lines in the metropolis. It must be admitted that the communication between the West and the East ends of London was as bad as it could be, and required improvement; but, at the same time, it was incumbent on Parliament to do something to prevent the unsatisfactory results which experience showed must always attend the absence of a uniform plan. The engineer of the City Commission of Sewers had not long ago presented a report in which he ably elucidated the advantage of that principle, more especially with regard to the various railway lines that were to meet in Finsbury. People wishing to proceed from one line to another would have there to cross the Circus, and those who came by the Underground would have some seventy steps to climb in order to reach the level of the station of another line. It was the same principle in favour of which the Royal Commissioners on Railways in 1846 reported, stating their opinion that the improvement of the streets of the metropolis consequent upon Railway extensions, as well as regarded utility and beauty as economy and convenience, must depend on the works being executed with one intention and as parts of one well-considered scheme. Mr. Bazalgette, the engineer, had, as recently as the 28th of January last, brought under the notice of the Metropolitan Board of Works the great evils attending the schemes now in contemplation. Mr. Bazalgette enumerated no less than thirty-six schemes of the Session which affected the metropolis. He pointed out that the Great Eastern Railway and branches would pass over the Northern High Level Sewer and the Mid Level Sewer, but being on viaducts would not materially affect them. It would, however, also cut through the sewer at Dalston, and no saving clause was proposed. He pointed out that the Kensington, Knightsbridge, and Metropolitan was throughout below the surface, and would materially affect the drainage of the district; that the Metropolitan, Tottenham, and Hampstead was also beneath the surface, and would have the same effect; that the Midland and London Railway would affect the drainage of the district through which it passed; that the East London and Rotherhithe would interfere with the sewerage of the district; and that the London Railway (Victoria Station) would destroy the arch of the sewer in that locality. He had said sufficient to show, that unless there were some body to represent the different interests of the public before Railway Committees, serious damage would accrue to the ratepayers of London. The ratepayers had paid, and for many years would continue to pay, heavy rates for the drainage of the metropolis, but up to the present they had got nothing for their money. They patiently awaited the result of the expenditure of their money. The drainage works were intrusted to men of eminence, and when the reports of the engineers stated that those works were likely to he destroyed by the railways which were projected, it was high time for Her Majesty's Government to take action in the matter. The Board of Trade did not interfere—it would be desirable that they should; and the Metropolitan Board of Works had no locus standi before Committees of the House, but they ought to be empowered by Act of Parliament or by an alteration of the Standing Orders to represent the public in such cases. If something of the kind was not done, London would become perfectly impassable, and he knew too well, from the case of the Metropolitan Railway, how much inconvenience and ruin a single scheme could cause by diverting trade from its usual and accustomed channel. When they considered that London was increasing every day, and that the great arterial means of communication could not increase in the like proportion, it would be apparent that means should be at once taken to insure that all railway schemes affecting the metropolis should come before the Committees in a well-digested and proper form.

Another Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "there be laid before this House, Copy of any Reports made to the Metropolitan Board of Works by their engineer, or other officers, upon the Railway and other Private Bills affecting the Metropolis, introduced during the present Session, —instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. TITE

said, that as a member of the Metropolitan Board of Works, as well as a Member of that House, he felt exceedingly obliged to the hon. Gentleman for calling attention to this subject. In some cases, where new schemes would interfere with the sewage, the Board of Works had the means of appearing with effect before Railway Committees; but as regarded many other schemes, which would seriously affect the public interests, the Board had no authority whatever to interpose. To take a single example: The year before last the North Western Railway obtained powers to make a line with a terminus at the end of Broad Street, which was in the course of construction; and now the Great Eastern was promoting a line to run parallel with that Branch of the North Western for two miles, and finally to end in a station nineteen feet above the street, entirely destroying Finsbury Circus. Nor was that all. Another line—the Metropolitan—had its terminus within a hundred feet of Finsbury Circus, but that was eighteen feet below the surface, making a difference of nearly forty feet between the two railways. Now, a plan might have been devised by which the Great Eastern might have run into the Metropolitan terminus at the same level, thus connecting two great and important systems of railway communication. The scheme of the Great Eastern was much objected to, but there was no one likely to undertake the serious expense— perhaps £2,000 or £3,000—of opposing a great and powerful Company. The new street in Southwark (which cost £500,000) was crossed by one of those bridges to which he had referred the other night, and a similar structure was intended to be built over the new street which the Metropolitan Board hoped to form between Blackfriars and the Mansion House, and which would cost £600,000 or £700,000. That bridge, too, was to be only eighteen feet high, and it would cross a street ninety or a hundred feet wide. The late Sir Robert Peel in his day had referred the whole of similar metropolitan schemes to the Board of Trade; and if the valuable Report of that Board had been carried out, there might now have been a railway completely round the City, as there was at Paris. That great opportunity had, unfortunately, been let slip. Evelyn, in his Diary of 1650, or 1660, remarked that London was the ugliest city in the world for its bigness; and it really seemed as if the bigger it grew the uglier it got. The Railway Committees were naturally anxious to consult the convenience of the public; and they therefore sanctioned every undertaking which appeared to them bonâ fide, and which was not opposed; but, unfortunately, there was no one in London empowered to resist any scheme that was put forth with regard to the metropolis. At the present moment a railway bridge was crossing the Thames not more than fifty or sixty feet from the new Blackfriars Bridge now about to be built; and the line would then cross Ludgate Hill, shutting out the only decent view of St. Paul's, and so join in some way the Metropolitan Railway, which was at a lower level. He did really hope that the Government would devise some mode of securing a public supervision of these schemes.

MR. MASSEY

said, if his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade were present, he would be precluded by the rules of the House from replying to the hon. Gentleman; but he could say for his right hon. Friend that he was not prepared, after due consideration, while fully admitting the importance of the matter, to suggest any special mode of dealing with the particular class of railways to which the hon. Member had referred. He understood his hon. Friend to lament that before the railway system had yet assumed its present magnitude the Government had not taken the responsibility of laying out the various lines, and presiding over the development of the system. The habits and manners of the people of this country, however, were very different from those of continental nations, and therefore a system which would be suited to the highly centralized forms of Government in other countries, and would there be subjected to no comment, would not be practicable here. If any attempt such as that recommended by the hon. Gentleman were made, the difficulties would be so great that the strongest Government would be obliged to give way, and therefore he did not think the Government were liable to censure for not dealing with the matter. The subject of railway communication with and in the metropolis was one of special concern, and there were now before the House some twenty-five or thirty schemes for occupying sites in the metropolis in connection with railway projects. If the House were of opinion that it had become necessary to provide some means of relieving the traffic in the streets of London through the medium of these railways, these various projects would be referred to the Committee of Selection, which, according to its usual practice, would classify, group them, and refer them to a Committee in the usual way. By the time that process was gone through, probably many of them would have disappeared, and the plans which would be ultimately submitted for the consideration of the House would not involve that complication which now rendered the question so difficult to be dealt with. He agreed with the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Tite) that the public interest should be protected by giving powers to some body representing the public interest to appear before those Committees, and to watch their proceedings. He gathered from the speech of the hon. Gentleman that the members of the Metropolitan Board of Works had turned their attention to this particular subject, and he (Mr. Massey) could not conceive that the exercise of a supervision over railway schemes affecting the metropolis could be intrusted to any other body than the Metropolitan Board of Works, which had hitherto done its work so satisfactorily, and which was already in possession of a competent working staff of engineers and law advisers. Especially, however, he would caution the House against intrusting it to a Government Department. The Board of Trade, some time ago, had been charged with the task of making reports on all railway schemes submitted to the House; and though it had duly performed that duty, its reports had never attracted that amount of public attention, or commanded that influence with Committees, which might have been anticipated from from the recommendations of a Government Department. A Standing Order of the House gave to all municipal bodies affected by any railway scheme the right of appearing before a Select Committee but there had been some doubt whether would include the Metropolitan Board of Works, which had come into existence since it was framed. Nothing would be easier, or more in accordance with precedent, than to extend the order so as to embrace that body; and if the House approved the suggestion, he would undertake the duty of revising the Standing Order, so as to give the Board of Works a locus standi before Committees which had to consider Railway Bills affecting the metropolis.

MR. AYRTON

said, he had taken considerable part in the agitation which had resulted in the setting aside of the Report of the Royal Commission which had been referred to, and which had cleared the way for the accomplishment of that undertaking now called the Metropolitan Railway. The great success of that enterprise had led to a large number of schemes being proposed for the improvement of railway communication in the metropolis. Among those schemes no doubt some would be found likely to be of great service to the metropolis. The question was brought under the notice of a Committee, of which he was Chairman some two years ago, and that Committee suggested that the Metropolitan Board of Works might be empowered to appear, whenever sufficient grounds for their interference appeared to exist, before the Parliamentary Committees. That seemed, in reality, the only mode in which Parliament could deal with this matter. He therefore hoped that the Chairman of Ways and Means would bring up some Amendment of the Standing Orders, by which the Metropolitan Board of Works would have an opportunity of appearing before Committees, and looking after all these schemes.

MR. NORRIS

said, that in his opinion the plan of the hon. Chairman of Ways and Means would not be a bad way of meeting the difficulty, but he would suggest that before the Standing Order was altered, care should be taken that the body appointed to look after the public interests in these matters would be one exempt from all commercial speculative local interest in the transactions. Commercial speculations and local interests would interfere with the due discharge of their duties before Committees, if confided either to the Corporation of London or the Metropolitan Board of Works. To ensure pure and disinterested action, he thought it would be better to place it in the hands of some Government Department.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, he thought that the hon. Member for Marylebone (Mr. Harvey Lewis) had done well in bringing the subject before the House. It was desirable that these various schemes should lot be dealt with separately, but that a comprehensive view should be taken of all the proposed communications in the metropolis. Nevertheless, he differed from the hon. Member for Abingdon (Mr. Norris), who conceived that it would be expedient to have the control of some Government Department over these schemes; they had had experience as to the inefficiency of such a plan. A Government Department might, like the Board of Trade, collect information for the purpose of laying it before the House; but, looking back at what had happened during the last twenty or thirty years in reference to railways, he thought, that though better lines of communication might in certain instances have been adopted if some general scheme had been laid out, yet leaving the matter to private enterprise had, on the whole, tended to the interests of the country. With respect to metropolitan railways, the suggestion made by the Committee over which the Member for the Tower Hamlets presided, and which was recommended by the Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means, was well entitled to consideration, with the understanding that the Metropolitan Board of Works should be represented before the Parliamentary Committees only on the ground of public interests, exclusive of private interests. He would not say more on the subject, because when the proposal to alter the Standing Orders should be made, that would be the proper time to discuss the proposed change. To the Motion for the production of the Reports he was not aware of any objection.

Question put, and negatived.

Words added.

Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.

Ordered, That there be laid before this House, Copy of any Reports made to the Metropolitan Board of Works by their engineer, or other officers, upon the Railway and other Private Bills affecting the Metropolis, introduced during the present Session.

Committee deferred till Monday next.