HC Deb 20 February 1863 vol 169 cc614-22

Bill considered in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clauses 1 to 8 inclusive agreed to.

Clause 9 (Salaries to be paid out of Monies provided by Parliament).

MR. M'MAHON

said, that the measure might be very gratifying to statistical societies and social science philosophers, but would be of no benefit to the ratepayers. He would therefore move the omission of certain words, in order to secure that the expense of working the Act might be borne, not by the rates, but the Consolidated Fund. The distress in Ireland was at present so great as to render the levy of any fresh impost impossible.

Amendment proposed, in page 4, line 6, to leave out the words "not herein otherwise provided for."

MR. GEORGE

said, he should support the Amendment. The sum of £16,000 was far less than the amount charged on the Consolidated Fund for medical purposes in England. He concurred in the main in what had been said that evening by the hon. Member for Dungarvan (Mr. Maguire) with regard to the distress in Ireland. The distress among the class just above the labourers far exceeded that among the labourers themselves; and it was on the former class that the burden imposed by the Bill would chiefly fall. The rates had been paid cheerfully wherever there were the means of paying them, for the sake of the destitute poor; but the motive in that case would not operate in this. It would be most unwise to peril the success of the useful measure by exposing it to the prejudice of an unjust burden.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, that the Bill would not, as stated, entail a charge of a penny in the pound upon the total valuation of Ireland; for, after a careful inquiry, he had ascertained that the charge would be only 5–16ths of a penny. With regard to the alleged pressure of local taxation in Ireland, he found also that the average of the taxation amounted to a fraction more than 2s. in the pound, or 10 per cent; whereas England was taxed to the extent of 20, and Scotland 10 per cent. The burden in Ireland, therefore was not so very extravagant as the Committee had been led to suppose. Calculations had been made that the probable number of births and deaths in the course of the year upon a population of 5,764,000 would be 193,514 births and 132,756 deaths. That was upon an average of years, and might be considered as very nearly an accurate estimate. But as by Returns just presented the number of persons who had emigrated from Ireland during the last ten years exceeded 1,200,000, and emigration still continued, the future number of births and deaths might be less than he had mentioned. Upon that calculation, however, if the registrars, as he proposed, were paid 1s. for every entry, and the superintendent registrars 2d. out the Consolidated Fund, the charge under the Bill would not exceed £16,300 per annum. The Government could not possibly allow that amount to be taken from the Consolidated Fund, and he hoped, therefore, the hon. Member Would not ruin the Bill by persisting in the Motion, and would not make a stand about 5–16ths of a penny. It was not a measure, as had been said, for merely social science purposes, but, on the contrary, was one of great national importance.

COLONEL DUNNE

said, he thought that the Bill, inasmuch as it made no provision for the registration of marriages, would be practically valueless. He could not regard it, therefore, as anything more than a Bill for raising £16,000 from the distressed classes of Ireland. He did not see why such statistical pedantry should not be paid for out of the Imperial exchequer.

SIR EDWARD GROGAN

said, the great complaint in Ireland was the rapid and enormous increase of the county rates. His objection to the Bill was that it proposed to put an additional burden of £500 a year upon each county. He was, however, quite ready to agree to the proposition of the right hon. Baronet as to charging the expenses of registration of births and deaths on the poor rates in Ireland, if he would, on the other hand, agree to allow one half the charges for workhouse, schoolmasters, and medical officers to be paid by Parliament in ease of the rate, as was the case in England. Last year the sums asked for these purposes amounted to no less than £130,000. £16,000 a year was a small sum, certainly, for the working of a useful Act; but he would ask, looking at the fact that the Poor Law Act was of recent introduction in Ireland, whether it was wise to divert any portion of the funds raised for the relief of the poor to a purpose foreign to the object of the Poor Relief Act?

MR. BAGWELL

said, he should support the Bill, which, he was glad to find, followed the English Act. He always liked to see the two countries placed on the same footing as far as legislation was concerned. The expenses of the working of the Registration Bill were trifling, and would never be felt. He hoped to see the day when Irish Members would cease to plead in formâ pauperis in that House. No doubt distress existed in Ireland, but it ought to be met there, and not paraded before the country as it had been.

MR. HENNESSY

said, he would be glad to see the Bill passed, because he thought it was a good measure, but the Amendment might be adopted with advantage. The Bill, as it stood, did not follow the English practice. In England £37,200 was voted by Parliament for the superintendent registrars and registrars. By the present Bill it was proposed to impose £16,000 upon the counties of Ireland for the payment of the same classes of officers.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

explained that the superintendent registrars were to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, and the registrars out of the poor rates.

MR. HENNESSY

said, that was not the English system. In England both the superintendent registrars and the registrars were paid out of funds voted by Parliament.

MR. LONGFIELD

said, he thought there never was a juster claim made upon the House. It was very well for a wealthy gentleman to recommend Irish Members to keep their distresses to themselves; but he forgot they had been patiently listening for several nights to the detail of English distress in Lancashire. They had heard of fifty-four unions in Ireland where the rates were 3s. in the pound, and nine in which the rates were 5s., without any rate in aid. He thought, therefore, the House should listen to the appeals of Irish Member on behalf of their distressed constituents. Did any body suppose that £16,000 a year would represent all the expense entailed by this Bill? By Sections 21 and 22 the guardians of unions were to provide depots for the safe keeping of registers, according to a plan approved by the Registrar General, and who could tell what the expense of those offices would be, and the cost of keeping them up?

MR. HASSARD

said, he wished to know what benefits the Bill would confer. The right hon. Baronet had spoken of its value in the succession to property, but there was nothing in the Bill to make certificates of registration evidence.

MR. MAGUIRE

said, the hon Member for Clonmel (Mr. Bagwell) had read the Irish Members a lecture. Would the hon. Member carry out his own theory of equal laws for England and Ireland, for instance, in the case of education? Would he assist other Irish Members to obtain back their own Legislature in Ireland, when they could effectually confine their distresses and grievances to their own country? There was such distress in Ireland that any addition of taxation would be felt as a heavy grievance. There was no desire to imperil the Bill, but he did hope the Amendment would be adopted.

MR. BAGWELL

said, he never had been favourable to the repeal of the Union, and never should be.

MR. CARDWELL

said, he did not rise to discuss the questions of national education or of repeal of the Union, or of the distress in Lancashire, except so far as to remark, that whatever the distress in Lancashire might be, no demand for aid from the Consolidated Fund bad been made. He was very desirous that a Registration Bill should be passed. The hon. Member for the King's County (Mr. Hennessy) was quite under a mistake. They were really debating whether they should charge on the poor rate in Ireland that which was charged on the local rates in England, and on the Consolidated Fund for Ireland that which was borne by the same fund for England. That was what the Bill intended; and if that object was not clearly carried out as the provisions stood, he undertook that they should be amended. He put it, therefore, to the Irish Members whether it was worth while to frustrate the measure, the advantages of which they were anxious to secure to their country, by insisting on a proposal to which the English and Scotch Members would never consent.

COLONEL DUNNE

said, he was ready to accept the Bill if the Government would ensure to the ratepayers of Ireland the same powers as ratepayers in England possessed with reference to registration of births and deaths. At the same time, he wished to take that occasion to deprecate eulogies of emigration from Ireland. To his mind an emigration was almost as sad an event for that country as a death. He hoped that the population of Ireland would increase, and that the means of supporting that population would increase also.

MR. MONSELL

said, he concurred with the hon. and gallant Member for the Queen's County (Colonel Dunne), in thinking that the local authorities in Ireland should be placed on a footing with the local authorities in England and Scotland with reference to the question. If the ratepayers of Ireland must pay the expenses of enforcing this measure, why should they not have the power of appointing the registrars?

CAPTAIN DAWSON

said, he could not see why the collection of what were called vital statistics should not be paid out of the Imperial exchequer as well as agricultural statistics and the decennial census returns; but, at the same time, he should be sorry to endanger the passing of the necessary measure.

MR. VANCE

said, the Bill violated the very principle claimed for it by the hon. Member for Clonmel (Mr. Bagwell)— that Ireland ought to have the benefit of equal laws with the rest of the kingdom.

MR. HENNESSY

said, he would accept the challenge of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy. The question was, out of what fund were the registrars in Ireland to be paid? The sum of £37,200 was voted in last year's Estimates for the fees and expenses of the superintendent registrars and registrars of births, deaths, and marriages in England. He wished, therefore, to know whether the Government were prepared to propose in their next Estimates that a proportionate sum should be voted for the registrars in Ireland. [Sir ROBERT PEEL: No.] Under these circumstances he should feel bound to support the Amendment of his hon. Friend.

MR. BUTT

said, he would support the clause in its then shape, as it was an exact copy of the English Act.

LORD NAAS

said, he thought there was great force in the argument from the analogy of the English Act; but why should not that analogy be carried out by giving those who paid the registrars the power of appointing them? If that proposal was acceded to by the right hon. Baronet, it might be well to limit the maximum payment, and then leave the boards of guardians to get the work done for less if they could.

COLONEL DICKSON

said, he trusted the Secretary for Ireland would consent to the measure being assimilated in every respect to the English and Scotch Bills.

LORD JOHN BROWNE

said, that he thought they were entitled to receive an assurance, that if the English registrars received anything from the Government, the Irish registrars should receive a like sum.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he had thought it best to adopt the principle of appointing medical officers as the registrars; but he had no objection to modify the clause to this extent—that the guardians should appoint the registrars, preference being given to medical officers.

MR. HENNESSY

said, he would put it to the right hon. Baronet to give a more distinct answer to the question as to what became of the £16,300 voted in the Estimates for superintendent registrars and registrars of births, marriages, and deaths.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he believed the sum had reference to the expenses incurred by the superintendent registrars.

SIR EDWARD GROGAN

said, he willingly assented to the principle of analogy between that and the English Act, but insisted that it should be carried out. If it was found, on inquiry, that any part of the £16,400 went to the English registrars, would they have a similar credit for Ireland?

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, the terms of the Bill, financially, were intended by the Government to be identical with those of the English Act.

MR. M'MAHON

said, the English Act was for registering births, deaths, and marriages. Give them a register of marriages, and they would not object. The present measure was of no profit or use to the people of Ireland. It would be of use for the decennial census for Imperial purposes, just as a return of emigration, and so on, but it was of no value to the people. Give them marriages, a record of which would be of service as touching kinship, heirship, and title to property, and they would not object to pay their proportion. He would press his Amendment to a division.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 38; Noes 23: Majority 15.

Clause agreed to; as were also Clauses 9 to 17, inclusive.

Clause 18 (Registrars' Districts).

LORD NAAS

said, that power was given in the English Act to enable boards of guardians to divide the unions into registration districts in the manner they thought most convenient for registering purposes. Great inconvenience would arise from the clause in its present shape, and he therefore proposed to leave out from the beginning to the word "Act" in line 19, and insert the words— The guardians of every union shall, on or before the 1st of January, 1864, divide the union into such and so many districts as they, subject to the approval of the Registrar General, shall see fit.

Amendment proposed, in page 6, line 17, to leave out the words "Each dispensary district."

MR. LONGFIELD

said, he should support the Amendment, on the ground that as the guardians had to pay and levy the rates to meet the expenses, they were the proper parties for dividing the unions into districts.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, the Government thought it better to adopt the dispensary districts, which were well known to the people, than to give powers to boards of guardians to divide unions as they thought proper. By the former plan they obtained a uniformity, which would not be the case if the matter were left to the arbitrary decision of each board of guardians.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, that as the dispensary districts existed in Ireland, and not in England, the Government felt that the existing arrangement ought to be made use of rather than a new one.

COLONEL VANDELEUR

said, he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that the dispensary districts were well defined, and ought to be adopted. If the election of the officers were left to the guardians, there would be canvassing from one end of the county to the other, and it would lead to a great deal of confusion.

MR. MONSELL

said, Sir Richard Graham's experience showed that medical officers were not the best registrars. On the simple ground that the English and Scotch ratepayers had the power of appointing the registrars, he insisted that their appointment in Ireland should be vested in the local authorities.

SIR GEORGE GREY

reminded the Committee that the noble Lord's Amendment did not touch the question of appointment.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 44; Noes 14: Majority 30.

Clause agreed to; as were also Clauses 19 to 22, inclusive.

Clause 23 (Appointment of Registrars).

LORD NAAS

said, he should move to leave out from the beginning to "district," in line 35, and to insert the following:— The guardians of every union shall appoint a person with such qualifications as the Registrar General may, by any general rule declare to be necessary, to be Registrar of Births and Deaths in each district and in every case of vacancy in the office of Registrar shall forthwith fill up the vacancy.

MR. HENNESSY

said, he should support the clause as it stood, as he regarded the claims of the doctors to be paramount.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he must oppose the Amendment. Medical officers had been selected, not only because they were fittest, but because he believed that the appointment, as a general rule, would give most satisfaction to the people of Ireland.

COLONEL DICKSON

supported the Amendment.

MR. MONSELL

said, as the registrars in Scotland were not medical men, he did not see why they should be of that profession in Ireland.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he followed the opinion of Major Graham, who considered that the registrars should be medical men.

LORD NAAS

said, Major Graham expressed himself in favour of medical men as against the constabulary, but he said nothing against other persons being employed.

MR. M'MAHON

supported the Amendment.

COLONEL VANDELEUR

opposed it, be- lieving that if it were agreed to, very unfit persons would sometimes be elected.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 24 to 27 agreed to.

Clause 28 (Superintendent Registrars and Registrars to reside in their Districts).

MR. HASSARD

proposed an Amendment directing the Registrar to appoint the days and hours during which he would attend at his residence or place of business for registration of births and deaths.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. BAGWELL

proposed in line 30 to insert after "business," "Provided always that dispensary houses in the Registrar's districts may, with consent of the dispensary committee, be used as registering offices."

Amendment agreed to.

Clause agreed to; as was also Clause 29.

Clause 30 (Registrar to learn and register Births and Deaths).

MR. M'MAHON

said, he thought the period for giving notice to the Registrar was not long enough.

SIR ROBERT

PEEL observed, that whereas in England the period allowed for actual registration was forty-two days, Ireland it was to be three months.

Clause agreed to.

Remaining Clauses agreed to.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered on Monday, 2nd March.