HC Deb 16 May 1862 vol 166 cc1832-7
COLONEL DUNNE

said, he rose to move for a Select Committee to inquire into the circumstances under which certain arrests (stated to be illegal) were made for trespass on the Curragh of Kildare, and into the powers possessed by the Civil and Military Authorities for enforcing their orders and Regulations within the Camps on that Common, while such Camps continue to exist. In 1853 a camp for the instruction of the troops was formed at the Curragh of Kildare—a plain which had long previously been used as a common, over which the inhabitants of the surrounding districts enjoyed rights of pasturage, and on which races had been held at least ever since the reign of Charles II. The proposal to establish a camp there at first awakened the jealousy of the persons who had enjoyed rights of pasturage, and who were interested in the races; but the Government entered into an engagement that no encroachment should be made upon the privileges of either of those classes. An engineer officer had been at that time sent to the Curragh, and a line was drawn on the map of it made for the purpose, which marked the boundary of the grounds to be allotted for the camp, and the ground reserved for the training and racing purposes. This arrangement had been made and signed by the late Lord Waterford on the part of the turf club, and by Captain Laffan on that of the Government. Since then, however, disputed questions of legal right had arisen in this matter. There could be no doubt that the Curragh was a common, and it had been dealt with as such in old Acts of the Irish Parliament, in which it was expressly called a common. The fact of disputed titles, it was well known to every magistrate, would oust the jurisdiction of justices of the peace in respect to trespasses upon the land, and any punishments inflicted in the exercise of such an assumed jurisdiction were consequently illegal. Punishments of that nature had, however, actually been inflicted on certain persons by a stipendiary magistrate sent to that part of the country by the Government. Not only had the stipendiary magistrate inflicted fines, but he had committed persons to gaol; and when they were brought up before the bench of county magistrates handcuffed, these magistrates had dismissed the cases for want of jurisdiction, and in every one the stipendiary magistrate was liable to an action for false imprisonment. The local magistrates referred these cases to the Government of Ireland for the opinion of the law advisers of the Crown, and after months of delay and evasion were at last informed that the arrests made by the stipendiary magistrate were illegal, and that they had no jurisdiction. This was a stretch of authority doubly objectionable when practised, not by an ordinary justice of the peace, but by a paid agent of the Central Government. Another complaint might be fairly urged by those possessing rights of pasturage against the acts of the Government. The Curragh was capable of affording pasturage for 30,000 sheep, but the number at present did not exceed 20,000, so that there was a loss to the people of feeding for 10,000. He also had to complain that soldiers were sworn in as special constables, and employed permanently in police duty. He doubted whether it was legal to swear in soldiers for such a duty; and, at all events, as the very name imported, when any disturbance induced magistrates to add to the ordinary constables, they had the power to swear in householders, to act as such for the special purpose; but they never were kept permanently on duty, as some of these soldiers were; and he should like to know by whom or by whose authority these soldiers were sworn in, and whether the Government would assert that their employment was legal. Nearly 2,000 persons, the Secretary for Ireland had asserted, had been illegally arrested for trespass, and sent to prison; but when brought before the magistrates, they had been discharged from custody. Although he (Col. Dunne) believed the number exaggerated, the real number was sufficiently monstrous. Such proceedings would not be tolerated in England. Was it right that the Government should set an example of outrageous illegality and violence to the people of Ireland? It might be said that the aggrieved persons might appeal to the law for redress; but they were too poor to do so, and the House was bound to institute an inquiry. The law officers of the Crown had admitted that arrests could not be made for trespass; and although it was proper that measures should be taken for securing the discipline and privacy of the camp, still it was essential that everything should be dune in a legal manner. There could be no doubt that a series of illegalities had been committed, and he hoped the Government would grant an inquiry.

MR. SPEAKER

said, that the hon. and gallant Member could not conclude with his Motion, because the House by a division had affirmed that "the Speaker do now leave the chair" should stand part of the Question.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, that even had the Motion been before the House, he should have been obliged to resist it. The hon. and gallant Member had entirely failed to make out a case. Four instances of illegal acts had been given, and he believed that three were the cases of prostitutes, and one the case of a thief. There was no special Act for the Curragh, as there was for Aldershot; and the hon. and gallant Gentleman, from his experience in military matters, must know that for the sake of discipline it was necessary to keep the hordes of prostitutes and thieves who pressed round the camp outside its limits. He could not see how acts done by a stipendiary magistrate could be more illegal than nets done by unpaid magistrates. The hon. and gallant Gentleman said, that whereas formerly there were 30,000 sheep, the number was reduced now to 20,000. Would he like the camp to be removed? The benefit of the camp being there, independent of the facility it afford- ed for military operations, must be considerable. The hon. and gallant Member had moved for Returns, and they had been given. General Larcom wrote, As to Colonel Dunne's Motion on the Curragh arrests, a Committee can ascertain no more that the Returns already given. He would therefore appeal to the hon. and gallant Member, whether any good could result from an inquiry into the variety of persons who frequented the camp.

MR. MORE O'FERRALL

said, that as one of the Members for Kildare he begged to return his thanks to the hon. and gallant Gentleman for bringing the question before the House. The complaint was that the camp interfered with an ancient right of way, and that it had been stopped without any authority. In the case of Aldershot a similar complaint had been remedied. The right hon. Baronet, who was usually very ill informed about Irish matters, had given a singular instance of it that night. It was not true that the parties molested on the Curragh were, as alleged by the right hon. Baronet, thieves and prostitutes. In one case, a child nine years of age was kept some days in prison, taken before the county magistrates, and dismissed. Labourers, and, he believed, one farmer, had been arrested for using the public way, and instead of being admitted to bail to appear at the petty sessions, they were sent to gaol until the next day, when, being brought before the county magistrates, the case was dismissed. The stipendiary magistrate set himself above the county magistrates. Gentlemen in the commission, who had resided in the county for years, and enforced the law in a proper manner, would not strain the law, or commit an oppressive act. The stipendiary magistrate had exceeded his duty in sending a man to gaol for a common trespass, instead of taking his own recognisance to appear, at the sessions. There was no wish to interfere with Her Majesty's troops. All that was required was that the rights of the public should not be extinguished except by Act of Parliament.

SIR THOMAS BURKE

said, he regretted that the Government was unwilling to grant the Committee moved for by the hon. and gallant Gentleman. He believed that every one in the neighbourhood was agreed that the stipendiary magistrate had far exceeded his powers.

MR. COGAN

said, he held that, on the showing of their own law officers, the Go- vernment had no right over the ground upon which people were charged with trespassing. He was sorry to hear a Gentleman who held such high office in the Government as the right hon. Baronet express approval of acts which were admitted to be illegal. Even if there were nuisances connected with the camp which ought to be put down, the law ought not to be overstepped for that purpose. He thought there should be a Committee of Inquiry.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, that the hon. and gallant Gentleman, who possessed considerable talents, had spoken for a long time upon the subject without conveying to the House any clear idea of his meaning, or the precise point of his complaint. The clear object of his Motion might, however, be gathered from what had fallen from the hon. Member for Kildare. It apppeared that there was a dispute as to a right of way over the Curragh, but that involved a point of law which could not properly be determined by a Committee of the House. If the Committee did pronounce an opinion on the subject, it would not be binding upon any parties, and would have very little effect in terminating the dispute. Another ground of complaint was, that there was a difference between the county and stipendiary magistrates; but that was a matter for the consideration of the executive Government. If any difficulty arose from the absence of special legislation with respect to the camp at the Curragh, it was for the Secretary for War to look into the question; and if it were brought before him in the proper manner, he would give it his best consideration.

MR. MONSELL

said, he was not surprised to hear the right hon, Gentleman say that the speech of his hon. and gallant Friend opposite was one of which he found it difficult to catch the purport, because, if he were correctly informed, the right hon. Gentleman was not in the House while the speech was being delivered.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, he heard the first sentences of the speech and the conclusion; indeed, nearly the whole of what the hon. and gallant Gentleman said.

MR. MONSELL

said, that if the right hon. Gentleman introduced a special law to meet the existing state of things, the magistrates and the public of Kildare would meet him half-way; but, in the mean time, he thought that the Government ought to pledge themselves distinctly that the stipendiary magistrates would be restrained from violating the law in future. It was of the utmost importance, especially in Ireland, that the law should be strictly observed; and if the principle were admitted that an officer of the Government might violate it with impunity, serious injury to the country would be the result.