HC Deb 01 May 1862 vol 166 cc1106-10

Order for Consideration as amended read.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

said, he would venture to suggest to the Government, in reference to the notice of Motion given by the hon. and learned Member for Cork (Mr. V. Scully) that this Bill be recommitted, that that course would be the more convenient one, as there were a great many Amendments on the paper to be considered, It should be remembered, that upon the third reading it would not be competent to make any Amendments in the Bill, however much the clauses which might be agreed to at the present stage of the Bill should clash with the clauses already passed.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, if it were merely intended to recommit the Bill with the view to the consideration of the Amendments on the paper, and any new clauses that might be proposed, the Government would not object to that course; but if it were intended to recommit the whole of the clauses of the Bill for the purpose of discussing them over again, the Government could not agree to such a course.

Bill re-committed in reference to the several Clauses proposed to be amended, and to the new Clauses proposed to be added.

Clause 12 (Compulsory Weighing at Public Weigh-house of Corn and other commodities in Schedule A).

House in Committee.

MR. M'MAHON

said, he wished to propose some Amendments in clause 12, with the view of exempting from the necessity of weighing at the public weighing houses goods sold in the shop, place of business, or dwelling-place of the seller.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

intimated that the Government could not assent to the Amendments which the hon. Member for Cork proposed to introduce. They struck at the root of compulsory weighing, which the House had already adopted, and to which he hoped it would adhere.

MR. MASSEY

remarked, that the proposal was really one to substitute a now clause for the clause in the Bill, and therefore it could not be submitted in the shape of an Amendment. The proper way was to bring up a clause embodying the Amendment.

Motion negatived.

MR. LONGFIELD

said, that in the absence of his right hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Whiteside), he wished to move the insertion of certain words in Clause 24, for the purpose of making it incumbent on the managers of markets to supply returns of quantities sold, and average prices.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, that it was impossible for the Government to agree to the Amendment, and he thought it would be unwise to force them to obtain these returns. They would do so if they could, without specifically binding themselves by adopting the Amendment.

MR. M'MAHON suggested, that the persons making those returns would demand payment for the labour, and that it would be unfair to tax buyers and sellers for such a purpose.

Amendment withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 76 (Right of all interested to be heard before Council, or on Local Inquiry).

MR. L0NGFIELD

moved an Amendment empowering the Lord Lieutenant and Council to allow such persons as they might consider interested in the question to appear upon an application with reference to the holding of a market or fair.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he thought the Amendment would be very useful.

MR. M'MAHON

suggested, that it ought to have been framed more liberally. Why should not any person who was interested have the right to appear without consent first obtained from the Lord Lieutenant and Council?

MR. LONGFIELD

maintained that the interests of the public would be sufficiently protected by the Amendment as it stood.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause (Power to Merchants to erect a Weighing Machine in their own Storehouse, with the consent of the Proprietor or Lessee of a Market) brought up and read 1°.

Clause 10 (Mode of Weighing; Deductions prohibited).

MR. H. A. HERBERT

said, he thought the clause would lead to abuses. He had received remonstrances against the clause from the Chamber of Commerce of Dublin.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

did not think there was any foundation for the objections to the clause on the part of some merchants. There was a special clause in the Bill to meet cases of sale by sample.

MR. CARDWELL

said, the only object of the clause was to remedy what was felt to be an inconvenience. The machines would be under the control of the weighing master, and would be a matter of general convenience.

LORD FERMOY

said, that nothing could justify the introduction of such a clause but the conviction that great fraud in weighing was practised in the country. He was of opinion that it would defeat the object contemplated by the Bill.

MR. VANCE

objected to the measure because it imposed compulsory weighing.

MR. GEORGE

complained that Irish Members had been taken by surprise, as they were given to understand that the Bill would not come on that evening.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, that before Easter he distinctly stated that the measure would be brought forward that night, and he could not understand why it should not then be taken into consideration.

Clause read 2° and added to the Bill.

Clause (Proviso for Sales of Samples) brought up, and read 1°.

Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

MR. MONSELL

suggested, that the Bill should be recommitted pro formâ, and that the right hon. Baronet's Amendments should be printed, or otherwise the House would have no clear idea what it was they were passing. In Limerick, however, a very similar measure had been for years in operation, and every class of the community were strongly in favour of it.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, the new clauses (which had been drawn up with great care) were proposed solely with a view to carry out the wishes of the House.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

said, he believed that there was a unanimous feeling in Ireland that the Bill should not apply to merchants dealing in foreign grain, who were not in the habit of using the market at all, but who conducted their business in the Corn Exchange. He thought, however, that it ought to apply to the class of traders who bought corn in small quantities throughout the country and then brought it to the neighbourhood of a large town, where they sold it by sample in the market. It was not right that they should be allowed to evade the tolls, and the clause should therefore apply to them.

COLONEL DICKSON

said, the only thing he had understood in the discussion was the proposal of his right hon. Colleague, that the Bill should be re-committed.

LORD FERMOY

said, that he thought the new clauses which had been added to the Bill would press very hard upon small dealers. In fact, those clauses had the effect of completely remodelling the character of the Bill. In order that the country should be afforded ample time for considering the Bill in its present shape, he should move that the Chairman do now re port progress.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 21; Noes 71: Majority 50.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he hoped hon. Members would clearly understand that he really had not the slighest desire to press the Bill forward in any unreasonable manner, and without allowing the fullest opportunity for its discussion. What he proposed was, that the Bill should be allowed to pass the Committee in its amended shape; and that when reprinted ample time should be given for its consideration, and then on the bringing up of the report hon. Members could discuss all the Amendments.

MR. BRADY

asked, whether it was the intention of the right hon. Baronet to recommit the Bill.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, it was not.

COLONEL DICKSON

observed, that no doubt the Irish Members had expected that a different topic would have been under discussion that evening, the announcement to the contrary not having been made until Wednesday evening.

MR. CARDWELL

explained, that the course adopted by the Government really afforded unusual opportunities for consideration and discussion.

LORD CLAUD HAMILTON

said, he also could state that owing to the circumstances; of the day, several hon. Members were absent who wished to take part in the discussion.

MR. VANCE

said, that acting upon what he believed to be good authority, he had told the committee of commerce in Dublin that there was no chance of the Bill going through till next week. The measure was looked upon with great anxiety in Ireland, lest it should prove fatal to the corn trade of Dublin, a bonus of 3s. per quarter being virtually given to the merchants of Liverpool over those of Dublin. The latter were sending a deputation to the Chief Secretary for Ireland, and he therefore would urge that the clause should not be pressed until the deputation had been heard.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, it was quite clear that it would be for the convenience of the House to have the Bill with his right hon. Friend's Amendments considered. If, therefore, they went through Committee pro formâ, inserted the Amendments and new clauses, and had the Bill printed, the whole would be in the hands of Members, and, on the report, the Bill might be re-committed, and the Amendments and additions discussed.

MR. MONSELL

said, he would admit that the proposition was a fair one.

MR. VANCE

said, he thought the proposal of the noble Lord a most reasonable one, and that it ought to be at once accepted.

House resumed.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered on Thursday next, and to be printed [Bill 96].