COMMITTEE.

HC Deb 20 March 1862 vol 165 cc1875-89

Order for Committee read.

MR. BAGWELL

said, he wished to move that it be an instruction to the Committee to make provision for an equalization of weights and measures in all mercantile transactions in Ireland.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he thought it undesirable at that stage of the Bill to raise so large a question, and he would therefore suggest to the hon. Gentleman to withdraw his instruction.

MR. GEORGE

said, he thought it would be necessary to agree to these instructions, or otherwise, when the House went into Committee, it might be found that they could not deal with the subject.

COLONEI, DUNNE

asked, whether it would be possible to discuss the whole question when they came to be in Committee if the instructions were not agreed to?

MR. CARDWELL

suggested, that the best course to pursue would be to allow the Markets and Fairs Bill to pass; and then, if it were the wish of the Irish Members, to bring in a Bill afterwards for the regulation of weights and measures generally in Ireland.

MR. SPEAKER

expressed his opinion that the Committee would not be able to consider the question raised by the hon. Member for Clonmel (Mr. Bagwell), unless the instruction were agreed to.

Motion agreed to.

Instruction to the Committee, that they have power to make provision therein for extending the equalization of Weights and Measures to all mercantile transactions in Ireland.

House in Committee.

Clause 1, agreed to.

Clause 2 (Extent of Act).

MR. LONGFIELD moved the addition of the following words in the commencement of the clause:— This Act shall extend to all markets and fairs held in Ireland under charters, letters-patent, custom, or otherwise, but

Clause, as amended, agreed to; as were also Clauses 3 to 8, inclusive.

Clause 9 (Contracts to be made by denominations of Imperial weight otherwise to be void).

MR. LONGFIELD

said, he would propose to omit lines 7 and 8, the effect of which would be to extend the provisions of the Bill to all classes of mercantile contracts in Ireland, and not confine them simply to transactions which took place at fairs and markets. His real object was that where articles were sold by weight, whether at market or not, the Act should apply.

LORD NAAS

said, he would remind the Committee that if the Amendment were carried, it would affect the sale of commodities all over Ireland. It was most expedient that the experience of similarity of weights and measures should be tried in the first instance at markets and fairs, where the standard weight was more known and understood than in remote districts. A provision which might very usefully be rendered applicable to contracts in the case of fairs or markets, might be found to operate somewhat oppressively if brought to bear upon the validity of transactions taking place between persons outside their pale.

SIR EDWARD GROGAN

said, he should support the Amendment, on the ground that if it was fair to establish a uniform system of weights in markets, it was equally fair that the system should be applied to private transactions outside markets.

MR. O'BRIEN

said, he thought the clause went far enough in the mean time.

MR. BAGWELL

said, it was absolutely necessary, if the Bill was intended to work satisfactorily, that the provision under discussion should be extended as proposed by the hon. and learned Member for Mallow.

COLONEL DICKSON

said, he hoped the Amendment would be pressed.

COLONEL DUNNE

said, he hoped that every Irish Member would give his assent to the Amendment, because public opinion in Ireland was, he believed, fully prepared for the change.

GENERAL UPTON

supported the Amendment.

MR. POLLARD-URQUHART

said, he agreed with the noble Lord the Member for Cockermouth (Lord Naas) that the change effected by the Bill was as much as could be attempted at present by legislation.

MR. WHITESIDE

suggested, that in private transactions it should be left optional with the parties to buy and sell by weight or measure as they pleased; but that if they dealt by weight, they should be bound to adopt the weights sanctioned by the Legislature.

MR. H. A. HERBERT

said, that from local knowledge and from the tone of the letters he received when holding office in Ireland, he could assure the House that the popular desire was that there should be an assimilation of weights for all purposes.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, as the measure referred only to fairs and markets, he thought it would be undesirable to extend its provisions beyond the limit proposed. If, however, there was a general wish on the part of the Irish Members to adopt the amendment, he should not object.

Amendment agreed, to.

SIR EDWARD GROGAN

said, he would suggest the addition of the word "sheep" after "carcasses of beef."

LORD NAAS

said, he objected to the Amendment, as mutton was generally sold in small quantities.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, he did not see why dead sheep should not be sold by weight when dead pigs were.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. E. P. BOUVERIE

said, he thought it would be a very stringent proceeding to render all contracts by weight void if not made by avoirdupois weight. It was easy to pass an Act declaring that there should be uniform weights and measures, but it would be exceedingly difficult to get it carried out. Such a law had existed for years in England, but it was disregarded in many districts, it being almost impossible to alter the ordinary habits and dealings of the people. He did not speak of large transactions in markets, but of petty dealings in villages and country districts; and, unless the public mind in Ireland was prepared by much discussion for the change, it would produce great confusion and litigation. He would, therefore, suggest that the propriety of modifying the latter part of the clause should be considered at another stage of the Bill.

MR. HASSARD

said, that, in fact, no material change would be effected by the clause. The same weights applied to all articles except butter and wool.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, he thought the words were so large that they would include contracts made in jeweller's shops, where articles manufactured from the precious metals, were sold by troy weight. They might even extend to the dealings of the Bank of Ireland in bullion.

MR. LONGFIELD

said, to meet that objection he would propose the addition of the words "excepting articles usually sold by troy weight."

Words inserted; Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 10 (Mode of Weighing; Deductions prohibited).

MR. LONGFIELD

said he wished to move that the words, "Markets and Fairs" be omitted throughout the clause. That was a verbal Amendment consequential upon the amendments made in the previous clause. His object was to extend the operation of the clause to dealings elsewhere besides in markets and fairs.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

asked, whether it was intended by the Amendment to apply to all weighings in shops?

MR. LONGFIELD

replied in the affirmative.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, he thought it would be necessary to introduce some words to show that the weighing was for sale, or it would apply to the weighing necessary in a gentleman's kitchen.

MR. WHITESIDE

said, he would suggest the addition of the words "every article sold by weight."

Amendment agreed to.

SIR FRANCIS GOLDSMID

said, he would suggest that the words "at a public weighing-house or place" should be omitted, so that the words should run, "every article sold by weight."

MR. LONGFIELD

said, he Was willing to accept this Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

MR. LONGFIELD

said, he would then move to omit from line 31 the words "without any" and to insert the words "and no."

MR. HENNESSY

said, he objected to the Amendment, as, coupled with another Amendment to be subsequently proposed, it would revive the exploded system of penalties for deduction. The Cork butter-market was now the most flourishing market in Ireland, and it dated its prosperity from the time when the old restrictions were abolished. He hoped those restrictions would not be revived.

MR. LONGFIELD

said, that the Bill would be inoperative without this Amendment, and another in line 34. He wanted to provide, by these Amendments, that no deductions should be claimed or made by any purchaser for beamage or on any pretext whatever, under a penalty of £ 5. He had, however, no objection to diminish the penalty, and say "not exceeding £ 5."

LORD NAAS

said, he thought that the penalty would operate very hardly, especially as the Act made every contract void which broke the law. He thought it dangerous to impose a penalty for an act which might be committed through ignorance.

LORD JOHN BROWNE

said that he was of opinion that the only way of compelling justice to be done to the poor farmers was, that of imposing a penalty in certain cases. He thought that few persons would remain in ignorance of the Act long after it was passed.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he should be willing to accede to what appeared to be the general wish of the Committee and accept the Amendment.

COLONEL DUNNE

said, that in Cork market, some years ago, there were more frauds committed than he could enumerate. The trade of that market had been improved, no doubt; still he was in favour of imposing a penalty in every case where a fraud should be committed.

MR. BEAMISH

said, that the Select Committee to whom this Bill had been referred had not thought it necessary to insert a penalty, and he hoped the right hon. Baronet the Secretary for Ireland would not consent to any alteration being made in the clause.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, that as it seemed to be the wish of the Committee that these deductions should be prohibited, the penalty was the only way of effecting that object.

MR. HENNESSY

contended, that the alteration proposed to be made in this clause would operate to the great injury of Cork butter market, which was now one of the most flourishing in the world.

MR. GEORGE

said, he approved of the Amendment, it being in his opinion a most admirable one, and it would, no doubt, give great satisfaction to the farmers of Ireland. The clause would be wholly inoperative without a penalty in cases of improper deductions.

LORD JOHN BROWNE

said, he hoped that the Home Secretary would, at the same time tell the Committee whether, if such a law existed in England, without the penalty, it was not inoperative.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, he could not answer the question; but he could assure the Committee that the clause would be inoperative without the penalty.

Amendment agreed to; Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 11, agreed to.

Clause 12 (Compulsory weighing at Public weigh-house of Corn and other commodities in Schedule A).

COLONEL DUNNE

said, he wished to call attention to a petition from the inhabitants of Mountmellick, Queen's County, objecting to the provision that the articles to be weighed on market days should be brought to the public scales as impracticable. It was probable that on a market day there would not be the means of weighing at the public scales the quantity of corn sold in that town.

MR. HASSARD

said, he wished to move the omission of certain words which would have the effect of making it optional to the buyer or seller to have an article weighed in the public market. A Resolution had been passed by the Dublin Chamber of Commerce to the effect that compulsory weighing was a matter of very questionable propriety, and would not only operate as shackles on trade, but would be often tortured into an instrument of fraud.

MAJOR KNOX

said, he objected to the Amendment. The buyers of flax had frequently been brought up for having heavy weights in their stores with which the flax bought by them was weighed, the effect being that the seller lost a certain amount of his flax. He therefore considered that the compulsory part of the clause was of great importance.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

said, he hoped the Committee would not consent to the Amendment, as, unless the weighing were compulsory, the enactment would be nugatory. However, the clause as it stood would strike completely at that large and very beneficial class of sales which were effected by sample. It would also injuriously affect sales of flax, because though the article would have to be overhauled and tossed about in the market, and a considerable part of a winter's day would be thus consumed, the buyer would have no security that the flax which might be brought to his store was the same as he had purchased. The matter had occupied the attention of the flax-buyers in Ireland. They did not desire to be exempt from any proper regulation, and they proposed two alternatives; one was that flax should be made an exception from these particular clauses of the Bill; and the other, and probably the better, was that, inasmuch as all the merchants who bought flax bought it to a large extent, those merchants should have in their own stores proper sets of weights, and that authorized officers should attend at the stores to weigh the goods and collect the tolls.

MR. BLAKE

declared, that unless the clause was compulsory, the Bill would be utterly valueless; and the Amendment, if carried, would strike at the entire root of the Bill.

LORD DUNKELLIN

said, he should support the Amendment. He could not admit that as a rule the buyer was in the habit of dealing harshly with the seller. Though such might be the result of the experience of hon. Gentlemen from the North, it was not the practice throughout the rest of Ireland.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, that the Amendment struck at one of the principal features of the measure. He had always been under the impression that the adoption of a provision for compulsory weighing in markets had been agreed to as a compromise to settle the question. The Commissioners had visited thirty counties, and had found that they were all unanimous in favour both of compulsory weighing and of equality as between buyer and seller. In Limerick, which had one of the most important markets in Ireland, the frauds that prevailed had been so great that the town actually petitioned for an Act to introduce a compulsory system—an example which had been followed by Cork, Belfast, and Londonderry. He should, therefore, like to see the same system universally in use. He felt that there was a good deal of justice in the observations of the hon. and learned Member for Belfast relative to sales by sample, but he did not concur in what had been suggested in reference to the sales of flax. For his own part, he could not see the necessity for having special machinery for weighing in the stores of the flax-buyer.

MR. GREGORY

said, he was glad to hear that the right hon. Baronet intended to persevere with the clause, which he considered the most essential portion of the Bill. He was continually met by complaints on the part of country folks of the use of irregular weights and measures by private traders.

LORD NAAS

said, he could but admit that such frauds were practised, and that it was desirable to put an end to them; but he was, at the same time, afraid that it would be found impossible to enforce the provision that everything should be weighed in public market.

MR. DUNLOP

said, he had received strong representations on the part of his constituents, many of whom were large purchasers of flax in Ireland, against the clause, unless it were accompanied by some such limitation as that which had been proposed.

MR. LONGFIELD

said, he would urge upon the Government to persevere with the principle of compulsory weighing.

MR. H. A. HERBERT

said, that if the clause were expunged, the efficiency of the Bill would be in a great measure destroyed. Great frauds were committed in Ireland in consequence of the want of such a system as was proposed. A Commission reported a few years ago, that when proper market accommodation was once provided, all agricultural produce should be both sold and weighed in the public market under the superintendence of a sworn weighing master.

MR. GEORGE

said, he could not agree with the Amendment proposed by the hon. Gentleman behind him. He was afraid, however, that if the sales by sample were interfered with it would create much discontent.

COLONEL LESLIE

remarked, that compulsory weighing prevailed to a large extent in England.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, there could be no doubt that the clause under discus- sion affected sales by sample, and his right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary would be prepared to consider that matter on the Report.

MR. E. P. BOUVERIE

said, he hoped that the question of flax would be considered. Such a clause as that under consideration would produce great confusion among the buyers and sellers of flax, and interfere with the natural current of trade as between them. It was proposed to make it penal to carry on such transactions above a certain amount in the weighing-house, and the ticket of the weigher was to be conclusive of the weight, and then by Clause 16, a penalty was to be inflicted if the buyer or seller refused to be bound by that weight. There was no security that the article delivered at the store-house would be identical in weight and quality with the flax or corn bought and. weighed in the market.

MR. VANCE

said, he would suggest that the articles brought into the market should be alone weighed, and that any contract dependent thereon should take effect without the public weighing of the bulk.

MR. RICHARDSON

said, he approved of the principle of uniformity of weights and measures, but it was quite impossible to have the article of flax weighed in the public scale. The farmer never would be able to get paid on the same day, seeing that flax alone in many cases would occupy nearly all day to weigh. He also objected to any clause which prevented the farmer from protecting himself by re-weighing the article.

MR. GREGORY

suggested, that the clause should be postponed, and brought up again on the Report, with Amendments.

MR. HASSARD

said, that as the general feeling of the Committee was against his Amendment, he would withdraw it, though his opinion of its policy was unchanged.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

SIR HUGH CAIRNS

said, he thought that the difficulty with regard to samples might be cured by inserting the words "and delivered" after "sold," so as to make the Act apply only to articles sold and delivered in the market.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, that on the bringing up of the Report he would insert a clause to exempt flax. With respect to the samples, he would consider the suggestion of the hon. Member who had brought that point under consideration.

Clause agreed to; as was also Clause 13.

Clause 14 (Penalty).

LORD JOHN BROWNE

proposed to increase the penalties for fraud by weighers by rendering the offender incapable of holding office in future.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he doubted the expediency of the Amendment.

LORD JOHN BROWNE

said, he would withdraw it.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 15 to 37 inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 38 (Local Public Inquiry thereon).

LORD NAAS

said, he wished to draw the attention of the right hon. Baronet to the extent of the powers of inquiry conferred by this and the 77th clause upon the Lord Lieutenant. By those clauses the Lord Lieutenant had power to depute to any person or persons he desired to appoint as Commissioners to inquire whether the existing market accommodation at a particular place was sufficient; whether new markets should be established, and where; and they would also have to settle market days, and to make inquiries of a very extensive nature, many of which would require that counsel should be heard. He (Lord Naas) was of opinion that some one person of experience and legal knowledge should be appointed for the purpose. A salary of £ 1,000 or £ 1,200 a year would obtain the services of such a Commissioner; whereas, if there were numerous local inquiries, the expense would be endless and the costs great. As the expenses were to be defrayed out of the Consolidated Fund, there was no difficulty now as to the funds, but he believed that his suggestion, if adopted, would tend towards economy.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, the Government had not desired to increase officials, but rather to leave local enterprise great liberty to regulate its own affairs. But on a new system, no doubt, a competent person would be required; and therefore he thought that, for a time at least, some person of standing should be at the disposal of the Lord Lieutenant. With the consent of the Chancellor of the Exchequer he had determined, if it met with the approval of the Committee, to take power to nominate persons to conduct any inquiries which might be necessary, and to draw on the Treasury to the amount of £ 500 a year, for five years, in order to meet the expenses. He thought an officer with a salary of £ 1,200 a year un- necessary, and he hoped the Committee would accept his proposal as a fair compromise.

MR. MAGUIRE

said, he believed that a Bill to lessen the number of official persons in Ireland would be a great boon to the country, and that at the end of the five years it would be difficult to root out a gentleman with £ 500 a year. A lease of five years would be a lease for life, with the probability of a claim for compensation. In his opinion the proposal savoured of a job.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, that, as no doubt he should be in the House at the end of the five years, he would take very good care that the gentleman should be rooted out. It was important to employ persons free from the influence of local prejudices.

MR. BEAMISH

said, he would assent to the proposal, though he should strongly object to a permanent office.

MR. HASSARD

said, he thought it absolutely necessary that the inquiries should be conducted by one person, so as to avoid conflicting decisions.

LORD NAAS

asked, whether all the inquiries would be intrusted to one individual?

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, not unless the local authorities desire his presence. They would, otherwise, be empowered to make the inquiries themselves.

LORD NAAS

said, that that being the case, he could hardly accept the proposition. He did not think it would work well unless there was uniformity of decision.

MR. MAGUIRE

said, he thought that the clause had better remain as it stood.

LORD NAAS

said, he desired to know by whom the expenses would be borne?

MR. CARDWELL

said, that in a former Bill extensive powers were intrusted to commissioners, whereas by this Bill they were given to the Lord Lieutenant; in Council. In England the promoters of Bills with respect to fairs and markets paid all expenses, and he had thought that it was only reasonable that the different localities in Ireland should bear the expenses of Orders in Council. His right hon. Friend, however, had persuaded the Chancellor of the Exchequer to allow £ 500 a year for five years for the expenses of carrying the Act into effect, and he understood that the money would be expended in addition to the provision made by the undertakers. It would be desirable that many inquiries should go on simultaneously, that all fairs and markets in Ireland might be the more speedily brought within the operation of the Act.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

remarked, that the matter might be safely left to the decision of the Government.

MR. H. A. HERBERT

suggested, that the precedent of the Savings Banks Act should be followed. Under it power was given to appoint a barrister to settle disputes. Mr. Tidd Pratt, having been appointed, went down to various parts of the country and arranged all matters under the Act; and in the same manner one barrister could transact the duties under the Bill.

MR. GREGORY

said, he agreed with his noble Friend opposite. He thought that as various intricate questions would arise under the Bill, it was desirable to have in the first instance, a person of considerable authority and weight to decide them, so as to prevent any conflict of decisions. He, however, preferred the proposal of the right hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) as it only involved a temporary arrangement.

LORD NAAS

said, he would suggest an Amendment to the effect that instead of appointing the commissioner for five years, he should be appointed for whatever term the Government might hereafter direct.

MR. HASSARD

observed, that there ought to be power under the Bill to appoint at least three commissioners.

LORD JOHN BROWNE

said, there was an advantage in having only one commissioner, as his decisions would be uniform.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, that the object of the Government was to appoint only one individual; but it might be necessary to have more in the event of demands for decisions coming from different parts of the country at the same time.

Clause agreed to; as were also Clauses 39 to 54, inclusive.

Clause 55 (Order in Council).

MR. HASSARD

asked, whether the tolls were to be paid on the entry of the articles into the market?

LORD JOHN BROWNE

said, that the reply must affect seriously the cattle jobbers—a useful class, who went from one fair to another. The sellers should not be asked to pay tolls if they did not part with their goods.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, that the question could be more suitably raised in the schedule.

Clause- agreed to; as were also Clauses 66 to 68 inclusive.

Clause 69 (Petition of Local Authorities or Ratepayers).

MR. HASSARD

said, he proposed to insert words to the effect that where it was proposed to establish a new market in the vicinity of or within a mile of another market, notice should be given to the owner or lessee or to the party in receipt of the tolls thereof, at least one month before such application should be considered.

Words inserted.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 70 to 76, inclusive were agreed to.

Clause 77 (Expenses of Execution of Act).

MR. GREGORY

said, he wished to add a proviso to the clause, to the effect that the Lord Lieutenant in council should appoint an inspector for five years, at a salary of £ 500 per annum to conduct any inquiries into the state of the markets and fairs, and the requirements of the public in relation thereto.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, the Government did not wish to be bound to. give any stated sum for any stated period, but to be left entirely free, and the effect of the proviso would be. to create a permanent office for at least five years.

LORD NAAS

said, his proposition was to appoint only one inspector, but it was evidently the intention of the Government to appoint a variety of inspectors, and. it would be better for the Committee to decide the question at once.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he could assure the noble Lord that it was not the intention of the Government to appoint a variety of persons.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, the Vote for £ 500 a year would be in the Estimates, and any hon. Member might oppose the grant.

MR. LONGFIELD

said, he thought the intention of the Government was clear. Circumstances might arise to make it necessary for them to appoint more than one inspector at the same time; for instance, one might be required for the north and another for the south of Ireland. He thought the Government ought not to be bound to any stated course of action.

MR. H. A. HERBERT

said, he was of opinion that some words ought to be inserted to restrict the operation of the Clause.

MR. HASSARD

said, he would suggest that, a proviso to the effect, that all inquiries under the Act should be carried on by the same person, as far as practicable, would meet the views of all parties.

Amendment proposed, To add at the end of the Clause the words "Provided all inquiries under this Act shall be conducted by the same person, as Far as practicable.

MR. GREGORY

said, he would accept that Amendment in lieu of his own.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The Committee divided: —Ayes 38; Noes 47: Majority 9.

Clause agreed to.

Remaining Clauses agreed to.

MR. BLAKE

that in certain towns the weigh-masters were entitled to receive one halfpenny per hundredweight for discharging their duties; and if they were allowed to make that claim under the new Act, they would obtain the lion's share. In towns so circumstanced he application would be made for the adoption of the Act, and he would propose, therefore, that the salaries of such persons should not exceed what they had been in receipt of on an average for the preceding five years. He proposed to insert a provision after Clause 20, enabling the owners or persons entitled to the tolls to discharge from or retain such weigh-masters in office on the terms indicated by him.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he must oppose the proposition.

MR. BLAKE

urged the right hon. Baronet to assent to the proposal.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he would promise, on bringing up the Report, to introduce a clause oh the subject.

Clause negatived.

MR. BLAKE

said he would then propose, after Clause 23, to introduce the following clause:— From and after the passing of this Act the appointment of weigh master of butter and taster of butter, under the Act of the fifty-second year of George III., cap. 134, shall be invested in and made by the mayor, alderman, and councillors of the boroughs and towns corporate in Ireland, instead of the mayor and aldermen only of such borough or town corporate, as is by the said Act prescribed.

MR. CARDWEL

L said he must oppose the clause, as being quite inconsistent with the earlier part of the Bill.

MR. HASSARD

said, no such office as that of taster of butter was contemplated by the Bill.

Clause negatived.

Schedules agreed to.

House resumed.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered on Thursday next, and to be printed. [Bill 52.]