HC Deb 27 June 1862 vol 167 cc1132-7

Order for Committee read.

House in Committee.

Clause 21 (Paid Officers and others incapable of serving as Guardians).

MR. COGAN

proposed an Amendment in line 17, by the addition of the words, "with the approval of the board of guardians;" the object being that the Poor Law Commissioners should not have the exclusive power of dismissing officers. The clause provided that officers dismissed should not be eligible for re-election for five years.

Amendment proposed, In page 9, line 17, after the word "office," to insert the words "with the approval of the board of guardians.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: — Ayes 29; Noes 54: Majority 25.

MR. SCULLY

then proposed another Amendment, at the end of the clause to add— Provided, however, That the disability consequent upon dismissal from office shall apply only to dismissal for a criminal offence.

Amendment proposed, In line 20, at the end of the Clause, to add the words "Provided, however, That the disability consequent upon dismissal from office shall apply only to dismissal for a criminal offence.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The Committee divided: — Ayes 25; Noes 63: Majority, 38.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 22 (Burial Expenses of Persons dying unknown).

The clause authorized the guardians of each union to bury the body of any person unknown who should be found dead within the union, and to charge the expenses to the union.

SIR EDWARD GROGAN

moved an Amendment— To leave out all after "that" to the end of the clause, and insert "the relieving officer of the union, with the sanction of the guardian or one of the guardians of the electoral division in which such person shall be found dead, shall proceed without delay in the burial of such dead body, giving notice to the guardians of his proceedings therein, and of the expenses incurred by him as soon thereafter as may be practicable in each case, such expense in each case not to exceed seven shillings and six pence.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

SIR HERVEY BRUCE

moved another Amendment— At end, add "such expense in each case not to exceed ten shillings; and that the guardians of each union in Ireland shall provide for the burial of the dead body of every person dying or found dead within such union whose family or connections are (in the estimation of the guardian or one of the guardians of the electoral division in which such person shall die or be found dead) unable through poverty to bury such dead person, and shall charge the expenses of such burial on the poor rates of the union or of the electoral division, according as such person would have been charged on the rates if he or she had received relief when alive; Provided, That the relieving officer of the union, with the sanction of the guardian or one of the guardians of the electoral division in which such person shall die or be found dead, shall be enabled to proceed at once in the burial of such dead body, giving notice to the guardians of his proceedings therein, and of the expenses incurred by him as soon thereafter as may be practicable in each case, such expense in each case not to exceed seven shillings and six pence.

MR. H. A. HERBERT

said, that a short time ago a labourer died on his estate. He sent for the son, and told him that he wished the man to be buried respectably, and therefore he would pay the expense; and he authorized the son to send in the charge to him, and he would pay it. The funeral took place, and the bill came in. The items were so much for coffin, amp;c.; and then came — "Whisky and tobacco, £14 0s. 0d."

LORD FERMOY

strongly opposed the Amendment. That the guardians should be able to judge of the circumstances of the family in all such cases was quite impossible. No one with a knowledge of Ireland could sanction the proposal.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 23 (Irish Poor Law Commission further continued, 10 & 11 Vict., c. 90).

COLONEL GREVILLE

moved an Amendment to the effect that the Chief and Under Secretaries of Ireland shall cease to be members of the Irish Poor Law Commission. He could not understand on what principle they were members of the Commission. When the Poor Law was first established in Ireland, only one of these officers was a member of the Commission. The result of their sitting on the Board was, that they had frequently to review, and to sit as judges upon, orders emanating from themselves.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he could not agree to the Amendment of the hon. Member. He thought it was desirable that there should be a representative of the Poor Law Board with a seat in the House of Commons, as was the case in England.

MR. M'CANN

said, there was no necessity for having the Under Secretary a member of the Board.

MR. MORE O'FERRALL

said, that Ireland was unfortunately governed by boards, and he thought it desirable that the Members of the Government, who had to review the acts of these boards, should not be members of them.

LORD NAAS

thought it advantageous that both the Chief and Under Secretaries should be members of the Board.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, he believed, as far as his right hon. Friend's personal convenience was concerned, he would be glad to be freed from the duties attending the office; but he thought it was, on the whole, desirable that he should be a member of the Commission.

MR. SCULLY

complained, that the whole of the five Poor Law Commissioners were Protestant, and four of them Englishmen.

MR. BRADY

said, the Under Secretary had attended the Board only nine times in four years.

COLONEL GREVILLE

said, he had no objection to withdraw that part of his Amendment which referred to the Chief Secretary. But he had a very strong-opinion that a Roman Catholic should be a member of the Board, and he wished to have an expression of the opinion of the Government.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, that like his right hon. predecessor in the office which he held, he should have no objection to see a Roman Catholic a member of the Board; and when a vacancy arose on the Board, he was sure the claims of any Roman Catholic who was otherwise properly qualified would be considered by the Government. But he could assure the hon. and gallant Member that the business of the Board was conducted without any reference to religious differences. He thought it would be invidious if the Under Secretary were excluded from the Board.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD NAAS

proposed to continue the Commission for five years longer, instead of three, as at present provided. He thought the Commission had the confidence of the country.

MR. BUTT

said, he did not wish to raise that question; but he could put his hand upon cases in which the Poor Law Commissioners had grossly interfered in religious matters, by which great dissatisfaction had been produced. If voting for a five years' continuance of the Commission was to be taken as a vote of confidence in the Poor Law Board, he should give every opposition to the proposition in his power.

SIR GEORGE GREY

thought the proposal inconvenient, and hoped the noble Lord would not press it.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

thought the longer period might be better for the working of the measure; but he was bound to adhere to the period fixed by the Bill, and hoped the Committee would support him in it.

LORD NAAS

said, that as the Government opposed his suggestion, while admitting it to be a good one, he must withdraw his Amendment.

In lieu of Clause 1 (postponed) (Existing Enactments as to Chargeability repealed—Chargeability according to Residence),

SIR ROBERT PEEL

moved the following clause:— All enactments contained in the Acts in force for the relief of the destitute poor in Ireland, which relate to the Chargeability of persons relieved under those Acts upon unions and electoral divisions, are hereby repealed; and, in lieu thereof, It is Enacted, That every person so relieved after the passing of this Act who shall have resided in the union for five years next before the commencement of such relief, and shall also have resided in the course of that period for two years in some one electoral division of the union, shall be charged to the electoral division in which he shall have been longest resident, and for not less than two years as aforesaid; and in case he shall have been so resident for an equal period in two electoral divisions, shall be charged to the electoral division in which he shall have been last so resident as aforesaid; and that every other person relieved after the passing of this Act shall be charged to the union at large: Provided, That nothing herein shall after the present Chargeability of any person who, at the date of the passing of this Act, shall be in the receipt of relief, but every such person shall remain chargeable to the union or electoral division, as the case may be, to which he may be chargeable at that date, and shall continue to be so chargeable when in receipt of relief at any future time, unless at some future time of commencing to receive relief he shall be chargeable to some electoral division under the provisions of this Act: Provided also, That, for the purposes of this enactment, the residence of any person shall be construed to mean the occupation by such person of some tenement in the union or electoral division, or his or her usually sleeping therein; but in estimating the time of residence in the union or electoral division, residence in the workhouse shall not be considered to be residence in the electoral division in which the workhouse is situated, but shall be considered to be residence within the union: Provided also, That the wife and children of every such person, whom he shall be liable by law to maintain, shall, when relieved together with such person, be chargeable in the same manner as such person.

Clause brought up, and read 1o 2o.

MR. BLAKE

moved to insert, after the word "Act," the words "shall be charged to the union at large," and leave out to the end of the clause. The town of Waterford, which he represented, was flooded by paupers who had been evicted from the surrounding districts.

Amendment proposed, in line 5, after the word "Act," to insert the words "shall be charged to the union at large."

MR. M'CANN

said, that the town he represented was also filled with paupers, who had been evicted by landlords of the surrounding districts.

MR. H. A. HERBERT

said, it was most illogical to suppose that a union rating would check evictions. If anything, he thought it would encourage them.

MR. BAGWELL

was in favour of a union rating, but he thought it was too large a question to be discussed on an Amendment at so late an hour.

MR. SCULLY

was in favour of union rating.

LORD NAAS

believed that a union rating would be most detrimental to Ireland.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 19; Noes 86: Majority 67.

MR. GEORGE

proposed after "union at large" to insert— Provided, That every person so relieved who shall have resided for the period of thirty months within the five years next before the commencement of such relief in some one electoral division in said union, shall be charged and chargeable to such electoral division in which he has so resided, although he may not have resided in said union for the full period of five years next before the commencement of such relief as aforesaid.

Amendment proposed, In line 13, after the words "union at large," to insert the words "Provided, That every person so relieved who shall have resided for the period of thirty months within the five years next before the commencement of such relief in some one electoral division in the said union, shall be charged and chargeable to such electoral division in which he has so resided, although he may not have resided in the said union for the full period of five years next before the commencement of such relief as aforesaid.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: — Ayes 39; Noes 71: Majority 32.

MR. CONOLLY

opposed the clause, believing that it would operate greatly against the interests of Ireland. The effect of the clause would strongly tend towards union rating.

House resumed.

Committee report Progress; to sit again this day.