HC Deb 05 June 1862 vol 167 cc436-40
SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

rose to move That, whatever policy is adopted in regard to the Indian Navy, it is the opinion of this House that the guarantee given to the Indian Officers by the Act 21&22 Vict., c. 106, s. 50, shall be maintained in its integrity. The hon. Baronet said, that a short time ago he brought the case of the officers of the Indian Navy before the House; but an Irish debate of six hours' duration sprang up, and he got no answer to the Question which he put to the Secretary of State for India. The subject to which he wished to call attention was the claims of various classes of gentlemen, numbering he believed about 250, who had done their country good service in the Indian Navy. When he asked the right hon. Baronet some time ago whether he could place on the table an account of the financial affairs of India, it was not with a view to obtain a copy of Mr. Laing's speech, but to see whether many important statements which had been circulated through the country were right or wrong. It was said there would be a surplus in India; but he thought the distinguished financier who had made that statement was under a mistake, and that as in this country, so in India, there would be no surplus but he referred to the statement now, because it assumed the abolition of the Indian Navy as an accomplished fact, and the gentlemen immediately concerned wished to know what their position was. He believed that the Indian Navy, composed as it was partly of Indian seamen, was peculiarly fitted for the duties that had been cast upon it. It had rendered good service in the Persian Gulf and in various parts of our Indian empire, and it was doubtful whether the same species of service could be performed better by any other body. When the House bore in mind the importance of suppressing piracy, and the number of treaties which they had with Arab chiefs, a strong case might be made out for keeping up a certain portion of the force; but what he wanted to know was what were the prospects of those gentlemen at the present moment. In the Indian press, and in Mr. Laing's speech, it was taken for granted that it had been for some time intended to abolish the force. But surely, when a body of men could quote the language of a statute for securing their rights, those rights were not to be ignored by silence on the part of the Indian Executive at home, and he wished to obtain a clear and distinct statement on the subject from the Minister for India. These gentlemen had been secured by Act of Parliament in the pay and privileges which they possessed in 1858, and it was only right that the guarantee which was given to them by Parliament should be observed. No one would pretend that the Act of Parliament to which he referred had been got up for the nonce, and that those gentlemen were to be thrown overboard as soon as a certain purpose was served. The profession had its prizes. There were four prizes in it, which would give those who gained them about £800 a year, and, like the military, the members of the force got up funds to provide for those who retired, and for other purposes. The older members of the profession had therefore naturally been looking forward to the speedy acquisition of the prizes for which they had served. He was, however, informed that great anxiety prevailed among those gentlemen, because some of them had received letters from the India Office offering them small sums of money, as if their claims could be disposed of in that way. If he chose, he could show that we had got into various serious wars in the East from the want of having competent Indian officers in command. The Burmese War, for instance, was occasioned because some umbrellas were not sent down on a hot day to meet the Commodore. He hoped that the change from a Company's Government to that of the Queen would not have the effect of injuring a meritorious class, who had not sprung from the aristocracy, but who had come from the middle ranks—those ranks which constituted the strength and power of this country. He now asked his right hon. Friend the Secretary for India to explain what the position of those officers was.

SIR MINTO FARQUHAR

, in rising to second the Motion, merely wished to express a hope that full justice would be done to the officers referred to by the hon. Baronet. He thought that the right hon. Baronet the Secretary for India must be well disposed towards those gallant gentlemen; and he would remind him that when the transfer of the Government of India was about to take place, it was guaranteed that the pay, privileges, and allowances of military and naval officers would be considered and strictly adhered to.

SIR CHARLES WOOD

said, that when the hon. Baronet (Sir H. Willoughby) asked him what the position of the Indian navy and of the officers of the Indian navy was, he must reply, that as a matter of fact it was perfectly unchanged since the government of the East India Company had been superseded, because nothing whatever had been done. Whatever might have been said in the Indian newspapers or reported through other sources, nothing had been done. If the letters to which the hon. Baronet referred had been written by Indian officers, they were not official letters, and had no authority whatever. The Government of Bombay had differed from the Government of India in reference to the measures which ought to be taken with respect to the Indian navy, and he had deferred taking any step till he should have had an opportunity of conferring with Lord Canning, with Sir George Clerk, the Governor of Bombay, and with the gallant officer now at the head of the Indian navy (Commodore Wellesley). These two latter gentlemen were now on their return home, and he was anxious to have a conference with them before he did anything. He had not, however, the slightest doubt that there ought at any rate to be a considerable reduction. In saying that, he hoped the hon. Baronet would not understand him as differing in the slightest degree from him as to the services performed by the Indian navy whenever their assistance had been required. He was happy to join in what the hon. Baronet said in respect of those services; but the Bengal marine, which was constituted on a different footing from the Indian navy, had also performed ser- vices not less distinguished. It was not, therefore, a fair inference that, in order to perform good service in the Eastern Seas, it was necessary to maintain the Indian navy on its present footing. He would remind the House that he was bound to reduce the expenses of the naval and military establishments in India to a minimum in order to bring the finances of that country to a proper state. Great reductions had already been made, and he was happy to Bay that the prospects of this year, in respect to reduction of the military establishment, were satisfactory. It was equally necessary that the expenses of the Indian navy should be in like manner reduced, and he hoped that this might be done without dealing hardly with the claims of those connected with the service. All arrangements which it might be necessary to make would be effected without in any degree infringing on the guarantee given to the public servants in India when the transfer of government was about to take place. He must, however, be permitted to put a different interpretation on the guarantee from that which the hon. Member for Hertford (Sir M. Farquhar) had given it. When an army or a regiment was reduced the effect was to diminish to a certain extent the prospects of the junior officers. But, if the guarantee referred to were taken to extend to all advantages which every officer might obtain by promotion, the Indian army and navy must be kept up for the next twenty years. It would be necessary to preserve them for that length of time, if all the advantages which their existence might confer on officers who had entered them perhaps only six months ago, were to be preserved to those officers in all their integrity. He entirely admitted that full and fair consideration should be given to the case of those officers whose prospects would be injured. It was his anxious desire, and that of every member of the Indian Council, that the claims of officers in the Indian service should be considered in that way. When a regiment was reduced in England, the officers whose services were no longer required were put on half pay, whilst to the officers of the Indian army their full pay and promotion were continued as if the regiment to which they belonged remained in existence. It was impossible to go beyond this, and he could never admit that the House had bound itself to keep up the army and navy of India, so that no injury should be done to the prospects of the youngest officer throughout his life.

MR. BRISCOE

said, he was exceedingly glad to learn from the statement of his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for India, that the just claims of the officers of the Indian navy would be fully, fairly, and liberally considered by the Government. That was all those officers desired. The Government certainly ought not to do less for these gentlemen than they had promised.