[BILL NO. 91.] SECOND READING. (Hansard, 2 June 1862)

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL
said, the Bill applied exclusively to Ireland, where, since the reign of Queen Anne, a general registry had been kept of all deeds of assurance relating to landed property. Some inconveniences mid abuses had grown up under the existing statute on the subject, and they had to consider the proper mode of providing a remedy for them. In some points the statute was almost a dead letter, and the mode of registry under it also depended a great deal on formalities. The 266 registry was established by a statute of Queen Anne in 1707, which authorized the registration by memorials of all deeds relating to land and wills, and declared unregistered deeds void as against purchasers for value, and mortgagees or creditors by judgment or recognizance. It did not, however, provide for the equitable effect of notice; but the Courts of Equity held that notice of the existence of an unregistered deed was equivalent to registration. A number of formalities was also required, and a non-compliance with any one of these rendered the registration a nullity. That Act was practically not altered until the 9th of George IV., when a very useful Act was passed; but that Act was repealed by a statute of William IV., passed in 1832. The Act of William IV. did not mend any of the defects of the Act of Queen Anne, but unintentionally led to the growth of a large crop of evils in the Irish register. It attempted to provide in great detail for the keeping of a variety of books, duplicates, and digests, but utterly failed; so that the consolidated index of names was not commenced since 1849, and the consolidated index of lands was not commenced since 1839, more than twenty years ago. To reduce order out of such confusion an Act was passed in 1850, and alterations and improvements were proposed, which were partly adhered to in the Bill before the House. The Bill of 1850 was to come into operation after maps, founded on the Ordnance survey, had been prepared, the lands indexed, and three months' notice given by the Lords of the Treasury. In point of fact, it was never brought into operation, and remained a dead letter. A representation was made to the Government by the Law Society of Dublin, as to the inconvenience and errors in the registry office, and the delay which took place in making the necessary searches for documents, and that led to a Motion in 1860, on the part of the hon. Baronet the Member for the city of Dublin (Sir E. Grogan), and afterwards to the appointment of an eminent lawyer, Mr. Lane, a Queen's Counsel at the Irish bar, to make inquiry. A more limited inquiry was also made by Colonel Leach, of the Ordnance Survey; and the reports of those eminent men concurred in affirming the existence of great evils, and in suggesting the remedies which it was desirable to adopt. Mr. Lane pointed out the mischievous consequences of the statute of Anne, making the validity of memorials 267 dependent on thirteen conditions, and quoted the opinion of the Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench in Ireland in favour of some legislation being absolutely necessary. Mr. Lane observed— The importance of the communication made by the Chief Justice could scarcely be overrated, when it was known that out of 34,000 memorials, not taken consecutively, 1,100 were open to objection, and in an earlier part of the registry no error or omission which could be made, had not been made to render the registration nugatory. It was proposed by the Bill to declare valid, notwithstanding formal defects, all memorials hitherto registered except those which had been acted upon either judicially or privately as being invalid, to repeal all Acts which required these formal requisites, to substitute the execution of deeds with one attesting witness, and to leave all other matters to be governed by general orders of the Landed Estates Court, under the superintendence of which in future the registry would be kept. The next important point was connected with the principles upon which the registry was to be kept. It was the original intention of the statute of Queen Anne, and of all legislation upon the subject, that nothing should be registered except with reference to some particular lands which were bound or affected by the instrument. But the practice of registering deeds, which did not refer to particular lands, obtained, and it became necessary to keep a names-index without any reference to lands, and a lands-index which might or might not correspond accurately with the names-index. The consequence was that both indexes had to be searched, in some cases as far back as 100 years, and in twenty or thirty names, to see whether any memorial had been registered which affected the title. There was abundance of evidence to show that searches occupied a great deal of time and were very costly. This was partly owing to the omission to specify the particular lands in question in the register. The Act of George IV. required that that should be done, but the Act of 1832, by an ambiguity of wording, did away with the provision. Another great inconvenience was that at present there were no means of concentrating the search by referring to any one head under which would be found the lands of which the particulars were required. The denominations were exceedingly numerous, and, as some were in English and some in old Irish, the confusion was bewildering. The Commis- 268 sion of 1854 reported that in their opinion the register of deeds, the Ordnance Survey, and the Encumbered Estates Court afforded the means of establishing an improved system of registration. The Ordnance Survey was a work of great value and unexceptional accuracy; and there was a general impression among those who had investigated the question that it ought to be made the basis of the register. Persons bringing memorials to be registered should be required to identify on the Ordnance map the particular locality to which the deeds referred. The next question was what division of lands should be adopted. After careful consideration, it had been decided that town lands, being the lowest unit of a known and fixed denomination on those maps, should be the basis of registration. The town lands were of unequal extent, varying from 12 to 7,000 acres, and averaging about 330 acres, the larger townlands being in the waste and mountain districts, and the smaller ones in the neighbourhood of towns. There were 63,000 of them, and the boundaries were most correctly laid down on the Ordnance maps. The only objection was that the names of towns on the map sometimes differed from the names which were used by the proprietors; but as that would not prevent them from being identified on the map, it did not matter. Baronies and parishes, on the other hand, were too large and unwieldy to serve the purpose. To recapitulate the main provisions of the Bill, it was proposed to abolish all the forms hitherto prescribed by Act of Parliament in the office, to simplify the form of memorial, and to place the regulation of the office under the Landed Estates Court, which, being a court occupied in the superintendence of the conveyancing of landed titles, most naturally would attract to itself the superintendence of a registry so intimately connected with its own operations. It was further proposed to validate existing memorials, however defective, unless they had been acted on as invalid; not to allow charges to be registered in the names-index only without a relative register in the lands-index; and to require that particular charges should be specified with respect to each of the deeds registered and with reference to the town-land upon the Ordnance map, so that they might be registered in the name of every townland, and all subsequent dealings with respect to lands would appear col- 269 lected in the registry. It was also proposed to take those provisions of the Bill of 1850 which contemplated objects most useful in connection with the Encumbered Estates Court, namely, that the register should be good although there might be notice of an unregistered deed; and that all instruments affecting titles, such as bankruptcy decrees and orders of courts, should be memoralized on the register. Lastly, it was proposed that the register should be placed under the Encumbered Estates Court, and that all other forms of enrolment should be rendered unnecessary. He hoped the hon. Gentlemen connected with Ireland would give the Government every assistance, so as to ensure the passing of the Bill this Session; and he would deprecate the proposal that it should he referred to a Select Committee, The Bill had been carefully prepared by the officers of the Government in Ireland; and with a view to its being passed this Session he should deprecate a proposal, which he believed would be made, that it should be referred to a Select Committee. As he had said, it embodied some of the provisions that were approved by the House in 1850; and where it did not do so, it rather rested upon broad principles of which the House was a competent judge, than upon any narrow points of detail which would require jealous investigation. He thought the Bill would be found to be very useful and legislation upon the subject was extremely necessary.

§ MR. HASSARD
said, it was true that they had a registry in Ireland for 150 years, and they were anxious to make it as perfect as possible. They had not to find fault with it on principle, but in respect to matters of detail, the forms having become antiquated and incapable of being worked. He quite concurred in the necessity of some measure of the kind, but he hoped that the House would consent to refer the Bill to a Select Committee. The speech of the hon. and learned Member who had just addressed them was the best argument in favour of that course; for he was sure that no hon. Member who was not fully acquainted with the law relating to land in Ireland could possibly have followed the hon. and learned Gentleman in his observations, and the Solicitors' Society of Ireland had, after careful consideration, come to the conclusion that it was most dangerous that such 270 a measure should pass without being subjected to the most minute examination. They were, moreover, wholly without reliable information on the subject. It was true they had the Reports of two Select Committees, but the evidence on which those Reports had been framed they had had no opportunity of examining or sifting. The provisions as to negative search and those requiring the specification in every registry of the town lands to which it referred, and giving to the Landed Estates Court power to prescribe the forms to be used, would require the most careful consideration. As the Bill stood it would, in regard to the effect of the certificates and other matters, occasion rather than prevent litigation. The index, which would be in fact the register, ought to be prescribed distinctly by the Act, and it was idle to ask the House to enter upon such a question at the length and in the detail required. He objected to confounding together the declaration of title and the registrations of the land, or leaving the two things in the hands of the same officer.

§ SIR EDWARD GROGAN
said, he would admit that some legislation on the subject was indispensably necessary. The body of solicitors in Ireland, however, strongly objected to certain provisions of the Bill, but especially with regard to the omission as to negative search. He had no wish to throw difficulties in the way of the second reading; but he suggested that a Committee of the Whole House was the proper authority to enact rules and regulations upon the matters embraced in the Bill.

§ MR. MORE O'FERRALL
said, there was a disposition on all hands to give a fair consideration to the Bill; but its complicated details could not be discussed by that House.

§ MR. GEORGE
said, he objected to any summary disposal of a Bill which proposed at one fell swoop to do away with Acts of Parliament from Queen Anne down to the present time, and to niter a system which on the whole had given great satisfaction in Ireland. At the same time, a large arrear of business had evidently accumulated, and it was necessary to expedite in some way the business of the office. He did not see why the Landed Estates Court should be selected for the registration of all estates; and the better course, he thought, would be to send the Bill to a Select Committee, in order to ascertain the best mode of dealing with the whole question.

§ MR. VINCENT SCULLY
said, he wished to ask whether, if the Bill were read a second time, the Government would consent to refer it to a Select Committee? He would not now oppose the second reading, but would move, on a subsequent stage of the measure, unless the Government yielded to the wish of the Irish Members, that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee.

§ MR. LONGFIELD
said, he did not think that the Bill was so much a matter of detail that it could not be dealt with in Committee of the Whole House. If it were referred to a Select Committee, there would be no legislation on the subject that Session. Hon. Members should recollect how many Select Committees were already sitting. He did not think there would be enough of Irish Members available for a Select Committee on the Bill. Seeing, however, the temper of the House, he was of opinion that the hon. and learned Gentleman had only one of two courses to adopt—either to drop the Bill, or to drop it more decorously by referring it to a Select Committee.

§ MR. HENNESSY
said, he hoped the Bill would be dropped altogether. It was the most important Bill which the Irish Government had introduced during the Session, and it was more difficult than all their other Bills put together. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary had not said a word upon the subject— perhaps for a very good reason—and there were none of the Irish law officers in the House to explain the law. One of the most accomplished and able members of the English bar had given an explanation, but not six hon. Members in the House understood it. Would it not be better to discuss the subject in the next year, when, perhaps, there might be some Irish law officers on the Treasury Bench? With the object of eliciting the opinion of the Government, he begged to move that the Bill be read a second time that day three months.

§ MR. BERNAL OSBORNE
said, he rose to second the Motion, not with the wish that the second reading should not 272 pass, but in order that the Bill might be referred to a Select Committee. He was not prepared for the Bill coming on that evening, for he had been informed that all the Irish Bills would be postponed until after Whitsuntide. The Bill was so important that he would really prefer to see it lost than hurried through the House. Her Majesty's Government had not the good fortune of having any Irish law officer in the House; but, nevertheless, with a disinterestedness which he thought almost peculiar to lawyers, the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Whiteside) had given them very valuable assistance. He had great confidence in the opinion of that right hon. and learned Gentleman upon those Bills, which he had made his peculiar study, and in which no party question was involved. He regretted that the right hon. and learned Gentleman was not in his place to give them the benefit of his opinion, which was well entitled to the consideration of the House. The hon. and learned Member for Mallow (Mr. Longfield) thought the question ought not to wait; but it could afford to wait better than many other Irish questions. The subject was, in his opinion, peculiarly fitted for a Select Committee. Generally speaking, changes of the law in Ireland were for the benefit of the lawyers; let some consideration now be given to the landed proprietors. If the Gentlemen on the Treasury bench would consent to refer the Bill to a Select Committee, it would be all the better. An awful vote was coming on to-morrow night. Let them take a bit of advice; let them not be obstinate; even upon sanitary principles let them not stand on referring the Bill to a Committee of the Whole House. Let them say, "We will send it to a Select Committee, and not outrage the feelings of the country gentlemen of Ireland."

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL
said, it was considered by the Government that the measure would effect a great improvement in Ireland in regard to the subject-matter of it, and that therefore it ought to be passed this Session. But as the hon. Members for Ireland, who were, of course, the best judges of their own interest, having considered the evil on the one hand, and the effect of delay on the other, were satisfied that it was more for the benefit of Ireland that the Register Office should go on in its present state for another year, the Government would not oppose that 273 wish; and if they desired that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee, the Government would offer no objection.

§ MR. HENNESSY
said, he would withdraw his Motion.