HC Deb 24 February 1862 vol 165 cc617-26
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

Mr. Speaker, I am desirous of saying a few words upon a matter of great interest and importance to the House, because it bears upon one of our most important privileges—I mean that privilege which is sanctioned by ancient customs, and I believe confirmed by the Bill of Rights—that there shall be perfect freedom of speech in debates of this House. It is our privilege to say whatever we think right in Parliament, and it is a breach of the privileges of this House that what any Member says in this House should be questioned out of this House by any person whomsoever. That is the corporate privilege of Parliament, and a most important one it is; for without freedom of speech on the part of Members of this House the proper functions of this House could not be adequately and usefully discharged. To counterbalance that latitude we have rules and regulations of our own. We have rules and regulations by which any Member is liable to be stopped by the person who sits in your chair, Sir—the Speaker for the time being—if he says anything contrary to the usages of Parliament, and contrary to those rules and regulations which, for the dignity and decorum of this House, have been established and practised, and which ought to be observed. But beyond this there is another rule established. Where it happens that the Speaker may not feel or understand the offensive force of some expression bearing on a Member of the House, it is competent for the Member with regard to whom any expression is used which is wounding to his feelings, or derogatory to his honour, to get up then and there, to stop the person who is speaking, and to appeal to you, Sir, and to the House to pronounce whether such expression is proper to be used or not. The way in which these general principles bear on the matter which I feel it my duty to state to the House is this:—In the course of 'Friday evening my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Ireland (Sir Robert Peel) used some expressions which, later in the evening, I was informed were considered by the hon. Member for Tipperary (The O'Donoghue) to be offensive to him, and to bear personally upon him. The hon. Member took no notice of these expressions at the time, and therefore nothing passed at the moment to lead anybody to think that consequences of any kind would follow from what I have stated. But late at night, after the House had been counted out on a division in Committee, and was therefore adjourned, it was intimated to me that the hon. Member for Tipperary had taken offence at some expressions used by my right hon. Friend, and that it was likely that results out of the House would ensue. Bearing in mind what the privileges of this House are, and that it is a distinct breach of privilege for any Member of this House to notice hostilely out of the House any expressions which have been made use of in debate within these walls, I thought it right, before quitting the House, to write to my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland. If any intimation had been made to me before the House adjourned, then, of course, it would have been my duty immediately to have made some communication to you, Sir; but, the House having adjourned, that course was out of my power. I deemed it my duty to take this step of writing to my right hon. Friend, because, having the honour to be at the head of the Government of which my right hon. Friend is a member, and also having the honour to be charged with the conduct of the business in this House, I thought it was my duty to see that the privileges of this House were not violated in a manner which, I am sure, would have been painful to all parties in this House. This, then, is the letter— House of Commons, Feb. 21, 1862. My dear Peel,—It has been suggested to me that The O'Donoghue may contemplate sending you a hostile message in consequence of what he considers your allusion to him in your speech this afternoon; and I think it right, therefore, before I leave the House to remind you that such a proceeding by The O'Donoghue would be a breach of the privileges of the House, and that if you were to accept such a challenge, you would make yourself a party to that breach of privilege. Your duty, therefore, in such case would be to decline the invitation; and I should in such case deem it my duty to state the matter to the House at its meeting on Monday, in order that the House might deal with the matter in the manner which it has usually dealt with matters of the same kind on former occasions. It seems to me, moreover, that your official position renders it the more incumbent upon you to avoid infringing the privileges of Parliament and making yourself a party to what would be a public scandal. Yours sincerely, PALMERSTON. The Right Hon. Sir Robert Peel, Bart., &c. I wrote that letter late at night, and had it given to a messenger to deliver to my right hon. Friend early on Saturday morning. In the course of Saturday communications took place which led to a request,—not directly in the nature of the invitation which I had enjoined my right hon. Friend to decline—but proposals were made to him that he should name a friend. I requested my right hon. Friend to refer to me—not with a view of making arrangements for a meeting, but officially to refer to me the hon. and gallant Gentleman who had been commissioned to communicate with my right hon. Friend. I saw that hon. and gallant Gentleman this morning; I explained to him the bearing of the contemplated proceeding on the rules and privileges of this House, and I stated that I should deem it my duty to bring the matter under the notice of this House this day at half-past four o'clock, in order that you, Sir, and the House might deal with it in such a manner as might be deemed expedient. I also thought it right to inform the hon. Gentleman the Member for Tipperary that such was my intention, as he would probably think it right to be in his place at the time. I have now, Sir, done that which I think it was my duty to do; and I have only to say that, having brought the matter under the knowledge of the House, I leave it to you and the House to deal with it as you think fit.

MR. SPEAKER

—It having been brought under the notice of the House that a distinct breach of its privileges has been committed by the hon. Member for Tipperary, it becomes my duty to call on that hon. Member to express his regret for the breach of privilege he has committed, and to give an assurance to this House that the matter shall proceed no further.

MAJOR GAVIN

I beg, as the Friend of The O'Donoghue, that the House will allow me to say a few words in explanation; and I think when hon. Gentlemen have heard the statement, they will agree with me that I have nothing to regret in respect of the course I have taken in this matter. I believe that every one in this House read, if they did not hear, the debate on Friday night. They will recollect that in that debate very strong language was made use of by the right hon. Baronet the Secretary for Ireland in reference to my Friend the hon. Member for Tipperary. My hon. Friend, on hearing that language, did not avail himself of the rule which enabled him to call the attention of the Speaker to that language as a question of Order, but left the House very indignant and highly irritated. He called on me at the club on Saturday morning, and stated that he felt himself grossly offended at the right hon. Baronet's observations the previous evening. I begged him to put in writing the words which he felt hurt at, and he did so. I am bound to say that, having consulted with him, and having fully considered those words, I quite agreed with him in opinion; and for any act which may have been done I, and I alone, am responsible. The House heard the language used by the right hon. Baronet. As well as I can recollect, the language which was employed—refering to a meeting held at Dublin, and presided over by the hon. Member for Tipperary—the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary said that it consisted of "manikin traitors," who sought to imitate the "cabbage garden" proceedings of 1848, but that he was happy to say the call was not answered by a single respectable person. I think those were the words; if I am in error, let me be corrected. I thought over those expressions, and I arrived at the conclusion that they were words that no gentleman should rest under. I had the honour of being in the army for twenty-four years, and I am quite certain that no such language would be tolerated in that honourable profession. Entertaining that view, and having a very high opinion of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland, I was convinced that it would be only necessary for me to place before him the very injurious nature of the expressions made use of, and that he would give such explanations as would be satisfactory to my hon. Friend. I went to Sir Robert Peel's house on Saturday morning. He had just left to go to the Irish office. I followed, and had an interview with him there. I told him my hon. Friend the Member for Tipperary felt that the language which he had made use of on the previous night was such as one gentleman could not hear from another. I added that that was my opinion also; that my hon. Friend could not possibly rest under the words which had been used, and that I required an explanation. I told him the words attributed to him, and I asked him to let me convey to my hon. Friend that he meant no offence. I then went further, and tried by separating those words—I mean those expressions as to no respectable person having attended the meeting—from the other words in the offensive passage, and so to bring the matter to a satisfactory conclusion. The right hon. Baronet said he would adhere to the words in their integrity. I then asked him to refer me to a friend. He said I must write to him on the subject. I did write to him, and if the House wishes it, I will read the letter. It is as follows:— 15, Charles Street, St. James's, Saturday. My dear Sir Robert,—As the explanation given by you to me regarding the words you made use of towards The O'Donoghue last night in the House is not satisfactory, and as the matter cannot possibly remain in its present position, I must request you at once to refer me to a friend. Faithfully yours, G. GAVIN. To the Right Hon. Sir Robert Peel, &c. Well, Sir, on Saturday evening I received a letter from the right hon. Baronet, which was very short and sweet, Baying that he had referred it to a friend. I naturally supposed that I would hear the name, but no name was mentioned; and though the letter was written at four o'clock, I did not get it till very late at night. However, last night (Sunday) I got another letter from the right hon. Baronet, stating what the House has already heard—that I was to be referred to the noble Lord at the head of the Government. And the House will allow me to say that there is no one-in the House who, I think, would so readily respond to anything of the kind. This, Sir, is the letter:— Irish Office, Great Queen Street, White-hall, Feb. 23, 1862. Dear Major Gavin,—In consequence of a communication I received from Lord Palmerston very early on Saturday morning, I referred to him the letter you addressed to me yesterday after- noon, and I have this instant received a reply from him desiring me to refer you to him. I am yours very truly, ROBERT PEEL. Major G. Gavin, MP. Well, Sir, I did myself the honour of waiting on the noble Lord this morning. I stated to him that Sir Robert Peel had referred me to him for an explanation of the words which the right hon. Baronet had made use of on Friday night, and that I thought he would agree with me that such words were not to be passed over. The noble Lord then told me what the rules of the House were. I said, "Oh, my Lord, if this is to be taken up officially, there is no use in my taking up your time about it." I then inferred that the whole matter had been taken up officially—in fact, it had been reported to you, Sir, before I felt it necessary to wait on the right hon. Baronet the Secretary for Ireland for an explanation. I feel myself placed in a very painful position. I did what I considered to be my duty towards my Friend. I had to vindicate his honour, and I went about it in the only way I understood. The honour of the hon. Member for Tipperary was placed in my hands. It has now been handed over to yon, Sir, and the noble Lord at the head of the Treasury; and I hope you will preserve it.

MR. SPEAKER:

The hon. and gallant Centleman the Member for Limerick, speaking on behalf of the hon. Member for Tipperary, has been permitted full latitude; but I must point out to the House that it would not be proper in the House to follow him to the extent he has gone, because one of the rules of the House is that any exception taken to words spoken in debate must be taken on the spot and at once; and no words spoken can be taken notice of afterwards in the House, if such exception has not been taken to them, and if the words themselves have not been taken down by the Clerk at the table. The value of that rule must be felt on the present occasion, because the hon. and gallant Gentleman has not professed to report to the House the exact words which have been complained of by the hon. Member for Tipperary. It is now my duty to inform the House that no discussion can take place on the words which were used on Friday evening. The time for discussing them has passed. A breach of privilege has now been brought under the notice of the House; and it is my duty to call on the hon. Member, who was guilty of what I must observe to him is an offence to this House, to express his regret that he has committed a breach, of privilege, and to give to the House an assurance that the matter will proceed no further.

THE O'DONOGHUE

—Sir, I hope it is unnecessary for me to say that I should regret deeply to do anything to violate the privileges of this House. And I may say for myself that I would have been the last person in this House to say or do anything which might wound the susceptibilities of any hon. Member. I hope, however, that the House will accord to me for one moment the consideration which they invariably extend to any one who has a personal explanation to make. Having received this afternoon an intimation from the noble Lord at the head of the Government that he would feel it his duty this evening to make a statement with reference to me, I felt it my duty to attend in my place; and as I took it for granted that what the noble Lord had to say would refer to what passed on Friday night, I made a copy of the words used by the right hon. Baronet the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, and which I considered personally offensive to myself. In rising to offer a very few words of explanation, I am sure I do not erroneously estimate the character of this House when I expect from it all the more consideration from the fact that the right hon. Baronet did all in his power to excite a prejudice against me. Perhaps the House will permit me to read the words which I considered offensive. Alluding to the alleged prosperity of Ireland, the right hon. Baronet said:— Of the justice of that opinion no more remarkable proof can be adduced than that which took place the other day, when there was danger of rupture with America, and Ireland was filled with American emissaries, who tried to raise there a spirit of disloyalty. A meeting was then held in the Rotunda, at which a few manikin traitors sought to imitate the cabbage-garden heroes of 1818; but I am glad to say they met with no response. There was no one to follow. There was not a single man of respectability who answered the appeal. I felt that this language was personally offensive to me, and I thought that I could not let it pass. I felt that the right hon. Baronet had come down to the House, having made up his mind to disparage my social position, I would not attach any importance to assertions or insinuations made in the excitement of debate or in the heat of argument. I feel that great allowance must be made for speakers under such circumstances. But I am ready to do the right hon. Baronet the justice to say that his speeches bear the marks of very careful preparation. The meaning of the right hon. Baronet's observations was quite manifest, for his remarks drew the eyes of the whole House on me. What, then, was I to do? Could I submit to such an affront without forfeiting my claim to sit in the company of honourable men—without bringing disgrace on the memory of those whose honour I am bound to cherish, and entailing a legacy of shame on those who are to follow me? What was I to do? I am quite aware that the ancient mode of arbitrament has fallen into disuse; but, if it has, those unseemly manners which make it necessary have also disappeared. What course was I to take? I consulted with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Limerick, in whose hands I felt that my honour was perfectly safe, and on whose judgment—matured as it has been by experience acquired in the most honourable of professions—I could implicitly rely. I consulted with my hon. and gallant Friend; and he agreed with me that I was not only entitled to expect an explanation from the right hon. Gentleman, but bound to demand, and, if possible, to obtain that explanation. We did all we could to obtain an explanation. I am sure that the House will agree with me that there was nothing bullying in the tone we adopted. Well, we failed to obtain it; and, if I am forced to come to the conclusion that the right hon. Baronet is not in an eminent degree distinguished by those qualities for which his countrymen generally are remarkable, the fault is certainly not mine. I must say that whatever the right hon. Gentleman may think fit to say with regard to my political conduct or course of action, with regard to that I have nothing to say. He may talk as much as he pleases about cabbage-garden heroes, and with all the more freedom from the fact that the inferences which the right hon. Gentleman wishes the public to draw are based on the most flagrant misrepresentation of facts. When I state that the right hon. Baronet is perfectly at liberty to say what he likes of my political conduct, I may be allowed to explain it in this way—that I should consider myself perfectly justified, if I thought it worth while, to say that the right hon. Gentleman's conduct when he went to Derry and spoke, as he did of the Archbishop of Dublin was most discreditable. [Loud cries of Order!]But I do not feel myself justified in saying—

MR. SPEAKER

This is not an occasion on which it is competent for the hon. Gentleman to enter upon a general discussion of this nature. The matter is confined within much narrower limits.

THE O'DONOGHTUE

I bow to your decision, Sir. But before I sit down I wish to say that I begin to be afraid that the mind of the right hon. Gentleman is not quite so hollow, and that there is much more of craftiness and cunning in his disposition than—[Loud cries of Order, order!] Then, in conclusion, I must say that the right hon. Gentleman is much mistaken if he supposes he can force me here to withdraw from a position [that I occupy elsewhere, or to renounce opinions that I conscientiously hold, and I which I conscientiously believe are held by the great majority of the Irish people, In conclusion, I have to thank the House for the attention they have accorded me, and I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the opportunity he has afforded me of exhibiting him in his real character. (Cries of Oh!)

MR. SPEAKER

I trust the hon. Gentleman is aware that the matter in question lies not between himself and the right hon. Baronet, but between himself and the House; and I hope he will not conclude his speech without some reference to the I position in which he has placed himself, with regard to the House.

THE O'DONOGHTUE

I thought that I had already apologized to the House for committing a breach of their privileges. I think I may add—although after what has passed it is almost unnecessary to say so—but if it be necessary, I am ready to state the matter shall go no further.

[Complaint being made to the House, by Viscount PALMERSTON, that The O'Donoghue, Member for the County of Tipperary, had sent a hostile Message to the right honourable Sir Robert Peel, baronet, Member for Tamworth, and Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, in consequence of words spoken by the latter in Debate in the House on Friday last; and The O'Donoghue being in his place, Mr. SPEAKER called upon him to express his regret that he had taken a course inconsistent with the Privileges of the House, and to assure the House that this matter should not proceed further.

Whereupon, after an explanation by Major Gavin, Member for the City of Limerick, who had conveyed the said Message, The O'DONOGHUE stated that he desired to acquit himself of any disrespect to the House, or its Privileges, submitted himself to its pleasure, and gave the required assurance.—Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons, Lunæ, 24o die Februarii, [862.]

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