LEAVE. (Hansard, 18 February 1862)

§ MR. VINCENT SCULLY
said, he rose to ask for leave to bring in a Bill for authorizing transferable debentures to be charged upon land in Ireland. The subject was one which he should not have had the presumption to bring before the House, were it not that to which of all others he had 437 devoted his especial attention. He might say that it was the subject on which originally he came into Parliament. When he had the honour of submitting the matter to the House on a former occasion, it was as a portion of a much greater measure to facilitate the transfer of land in Ireland by means of registration of title. That measure had obtained a second reading in June, 1853, and was referred to a Select Committee over which the right hon. Gentleman the present Speaker presided Although he had confined his measure to Ireland, the subject was one equally interesting to England, as, if it worked beneficially for Ireland, it would, no doubt, be adopted here as soon as it found it convenient to do so. The object of his measure was to simplify the charges upon land. He had j intended to bring forward a more extensive measure, but the larger portion of the subject he would not then dwell upon, because he saw that it had been made the subject of the day. It was the only species of reform mentioned in Her Majesty's speech; and he was happy to see from that morning's papers that it had been brought forward in another place by the Lord Chancellor. However, he felt that it was open to him to do what he proposed on the present occasion, because the noble and learned Lord's scheme did not include any system of land debentures. The House would recollect that a Royal Commission had been appointed to consider the question of registration of titles. He had the honour of being one of the Commissioners, and his plan was considered by them. In page 17 of their report the Commissioners stated— With regard to the system of land debentures proposed by Mr. Scully's plan, we conceive that it is not within the range of the inquiry submitted to us, and therefore do not recommend it, There is not in England any adequate machinery for ascertaining judicially the value of land, through a public map or general valuation, such as exists in Ireland. Although we do not recommend the adoption of a judicial system of land debentures, we think it right to observe that there may be facilities for trying it in a proper manner in Ireland, where strong opinions have been expressed in its favour. The system of land debentures which he now proposed, and which he had proposed for the last fifteen years, was simply that through the machinery of a land tribunal there should be a mode of investigating and ascertaining the fair and proper value of land, and that the Court should be at liberty to authorize the issue of debentures 438 chargeable on the land, say to about the moiety of its value. If, for instance, the Judicial Tribunal considered that the annual value of certain land was £1,000, and the selling value £20,000, or twenty years' purchase, the might issue statutable Parliamentary debentures to the amount of £10,000. There might be 100 of these debentures, of the value of £100 each; which would have equal priority, and bear an equal rate of interest payable upon stated days. There were abundant precedents for the establishment of land debentures; but no general plan of the kind which he proposed had ever been adopted in this country. In Hanover, Prussia, and other parts of the continent, however, the principle had been recognised. In 1852 it was introduced with much advantage into France, through the system of Cridit Fonder, The principles and operation of the Prussian system were fully explained in a treatise, published in 1853, by the hon. Member for Westmeath, and also in an article in the Westminster Review for October, 1857. As to land banks or land companies, be believed that the landlords of Ireland would not at present avail themselves of such establishments, though they would take up what he proposed. The advantages of land debentures were very obvious, and would be participated in by all classes. At present, when a gentleman, having land to the value of £1,000 a year, wanted to borrow £10,000, he had to employ an attorney, incur heavy law costs, and sometimes to pay a large commission to the person who procured the loan; and in charging his estate with £10,000 he, in most cases, did so serious an injury to himself that it would have been better for him to have sold half his land. Charges incurred in that way were seldom got rid of—not in one case out of ten. Let any one put himself in the position of an owner, or buyer, or seller of land. If a man bought land to the extent of £20,000, it would be often convenient to pay a portion of the purchase-money by means of debentures of this description. If, on the other I hand, a landowner became a seller of land, it was probable he would have more bidders for his estate, and would obtain a better price for it. An encumbered owner would be manifestly benefited by the ability to issue such debentures, and the unencumbered owner would not be injured by it. He had already fully described I the nature of his proposal in a speech 439 which he had delivered in that House in May, 1853. If any hon. Gentleman wished to read it, he had a copy at his service, and its perusal would save hon. Members the trouble of hearing him at much length on the present occasion. The description of land debentures which it would be desirable to issue was matter of detail, and might be safely left to the Landed Estates Court. It would be sufficient that they should pass from hand to hand with a Parliamentary title. Under the English Lands Improvement Act of 1853 certain land debentures were empowered to be issued, which might be transferred to bearer. There were many, high authorities in favour of some such plan for Ireland. The Royal Commission on Registration of Title had in substance approved of the general principle— A statutory enactment conferring all the powers which a mortgagee now usually possesses under distinct provisions of his deed, coupled with a registration of the charge, as well as of the land, might probably be framed so as to give to charges on land the same advantages and the same facilities of transfer as those which attach to railway debentures. Among the witnesses who had given their evidence generally in favour of the principle of the plan he proposed, were Mr. Commissioner Longfield, Mr. Commissioner Hargreave, Master Brooke, Sir Richard Griffith (who was well acquainted with the ordnance survey and general valuation of Ireland), Sir Mathew Barrington, Sir Mathew Sausse, Chief Justice of Bombay, and other experienced persons. Mr. Commissioner Hargreave said, in his answers to the Registration Commissioners— I think that the creation, transfer, and extinguishment of charges on land ought to be rendered as simple as the transfer of the land itself; but I have not considered any plan for effecting that object, except the one proposed by Mr. Vincent Scully. I should regard this as an important feature of any permanent system of land transfer, and I think it would greatly increase the value of securities on land, and tend to diminish the average rate of interest at which landed proprietors would be able to obtain advances. Mr. Hargreave spoke with the high authority of a Commissioner of the Encumbered Estates Court. At present it was considered discreditable to a man to mortgage his property, and if he were in difficulties it was sometimes his ruin. But if the proposed description of charge were sanctioned, there would be nothing discreditable in a landowner with an estate, say 440 of £1,000 a year, availing himself of the privilege of obtaining debentures to the extent of £10,000, which would be useful at any time to stock his farm, to give a portion to one of his children, or for other purposes. Should any objection be made to the Bill, he would take the liberty of renewing the subject on the second reading, but he hoped that the House would allow not only the first, but the second reading also, without any necessity for his troubling it further.

§ MR. POLLARD-URQUHART
seconded the Motion. The supporters of the measure were not asking for any special power in asking for a power of issuing land debentures, and he thought there was every reason to induce the Legislature to listen to those whose object it was to ameliorate the burdens upon land. By the existing system, not only was the interest on money borrowed on land enhanced, but the general expense of management much increased. It had been calculated that this increase amounted to as much as 1½ per cent, and he believed that, by a well-considered measure, the interest on loans on the security of land might be lowered so much as to form a sinking fund sufficient to pay off a mortgage in one generation. A similar plan had been tried in Prussia and in France with great success. It was introduced into Prussia by Frederick H. at a time when, consequent on the great war in which Prussia had been engaged, the condition of Prussian landlords was no better than that of Irish landowners immediately after the famine. And the plan had been productive of great benefit. The same thing had been tried in France also with great success. He knew but of two objections to the plan, first, that it would give too great facilities to borrowers. But mortgages were frequently resorted to to pay off debts already incurred, and the existence of a system which rendered borrowing expensive added to the evils which the landowner was suffering under. In the next place it was objected that the debentures would go into currency, but that objection would equally apply to bankers' cheques and bills of exchange.

§ MR. H. HERBERT
said, he was not quite prepared to recognise the great advantages which were expected by the hon. Mover and Seconder to flow from this scheme. Both speakers had assumed that it was a great advantnge to facilitate mortgages of land in Ireland. But, notwithstanding the difficulties which sur- 441 rounded the borrowing of money on landed security, it was well known that Irish landlords had contrived to borrow pretty extensively. Besides, he looked on the scheme as a step in the direction of a reversal of the policy which originated the Encumbered Estates Courts, which it was generally acknowledged had led to highly beneficial results. The House had been asked whether it was not an advantage to enable a man to buy a property which he could charge with half the purchase money. In other words, to purchase property which he had not the money to pay for. In his (Mr. Herbert's) opinion, it must be deemed more beneficial for the purchaser to buy half the estate and pay for it. At all events, he hoped that ample time would be given for a discussion of the measure, and that the subject would receive from the Government that consideration which its importance demanded.

§ MR. GEORGE
said, he thought it right to draw the attention of his hon. and learned Friend to the circumstance that it was the intention of the right hon. and learned Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Whiteside) with the concurrence of one of the Judges of the Landed Estates Court in Ireland, to introduce a Bill somewhat analogous to the Bill which it was now I sought to bring in. Under these circumstances he reserved to himself and to his right hon. Friend the right of dealing with this Bill hereafter as they might think proper.

§ SIR ROBERT PEEL
said, that no doubt the hon. Member for the County of Cork had given great consideration and attention to the subject; but, at the same time, as the House did not yet know the details of his Bill, the discussion of the proposition had better not be entered upon until some further opportunity.

§ MR. HADFIELD
remarked, that the practice of purchasing£100,000 worth of land with £50,000, and borrowing the remainder, had led to one of the difficulties which had rendered the establishment of the Encumbered Estates Court necessary. Supposing there were many lenders on one estate, as the hon. Member for Cork proposes, and the owner wanted to sell an acre, would not the concurrence of all the mortgagees be necessary? Supposing, further, the interest not to be I paid, who was to foreclose? who was to take possession? who was to receive the rents? Legislation concerning real estate appeared to be running wild. Five Bills 442 affecting land had been introduced into the other House only last night. It was a very difficult thing, indeed, to alter the present law affecting landed estates, and he had not yet heard a description of any machinery by which advantageous changes could be effected. So far from removing the difficulties in dealing with real property, the proposed course of legislation seemed to multiply them, and instead of diminishing the expense to increase it. He could not see how the matter could be profitably dealt with unless the House were prepared to register estates in the same manner as Consols or railway and canal stock were registered, and to give a trustee of the legal estate an absolute right to transfer the property discharged of all equitable claims upon it.

§ MR. VINCENT SCULLY
said, he was surprised to find himself misunderstood by the right hon. Member for Kerry (Mr. H Herbert), who, as long ago as April, 1831, was selected as the organ of the Irish landlords for submitting a petition for a similar measure to the consideration of the then Attorney General, Sir John Romilly. Instead of encouraging the encumbrance of estates the Bill would limit the amount to half the value.