§ Order for Consideration, as amended, read.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, it was doubtful whether the Amendments of which his right hon. Friend (Mr. Villiers) had given notice could be made on the Report. He would therefore move that the Bill be re-committed.
§ Motion agreed to.
§ Bill re-committed, "to consider Amendments to Clauses 1, 2, and 5, of which notice has been given."
§ Bill considered in Committee:—
§ Clause 1 (Guardians may charge Coat of Relief in Parishes in excess of 5s. in the Pound on the other Parishes in Union).
§ On the Motion of Mr. C. P. VILLIERS, Amendments were made in this and the following Clauses, by which the cost of relief at which the power of charging the other parishes in union was altered from 5s. to 3s.
§ Other Amendments made.
1079§ House resumed.
§ Bill reported.
§ Bill, as amended, considered.
§ MR. HADFIELD(in the absence of Mr. BEBNAL OSBORNE) moved the following clause:—
(As to loss of Vote.)That no person shall lose his vote for a Member of Parliament or a municipal officer for any city or borough in the said counties or other places by reason of his receiving parochial relief or other alms during the continuance of this Act.The hon. Member said it would be a graceful concession to the working classes to pass this Amendment, which merely declared that they should not lose the privilege of voting for receiving alms during the calamity in which their conduct had been so remarkably praiseworthy.
§ Clause brought up, and read 1°.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the said Clause be now read a second time."
§ SIR JOHN SHELLEYseconded the Motion, and said he would strongly urge upon his right hon. Friend the President of the Poor Law Board that it would be adding insult to injury if they should deprive the working men of the distressed districts who received relief of the right of citizenship, because they were placed in a position of difficulty by no fault of their own. The working classes in those districts showed that they were entitled to the franchise by the conduct they had displayed under circumstances of great pressure.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he should have been glad if he had felt himself at liberty to assent to the addition of the clause; but he had already stated the objections which existed to such an extensive alteration of the law as would be effected by the proposed clause. The disqualification of electors who had received parochial relief did not rest on statute law, but on common law. It had always been felt that voters in the receipt of parochial relief were not so independent as they ought to be; and if the exemption now proposed became general, a door would be opened for corruption and bribery. If, indeed, it were possible to draw any line of distinction so as to include only those persons who were now receiving relief in Lancashire, owing to the special causes which had brought on the present distress, something might be made out in favour of the proposal; but the clause was 1080 general in its operation, suspending the law of the land for seven months throughout the whole country. [Mr. HADFIELD: No, only in any city or borough in the said counties.] The clause would then extend to the counties of Lancaster, Chester, and Derby. He had, on a former occasion, expressed his desire that persons should abstain from taking objections to the votes of parties who might be disqualified by receiving relief during the distress in those counties, but he did not think it would be right to make so sweeping a change in the law, founded on exceptional circumstances; especially by a clause to be added on the Report of a Bill, and which really had no immediate connection with its subject. No person would be entitled to receive relief under the present Bill who would not, if necessary, receive relief under the existing law. He therefore trusted the hon. Member would not press his clause.
§ MR. COBDENsaid, he would not advise his hon. Friend to divide on the question, provided the Government intended to oppose the clause. It was better to leave the question open for the consideration of Parliament next spring. They could not know now the extent to which this calamity would be felt; they might be legislating for a large degree of distress which he trusted would not prove to be so severe as was anticipated; but they were doing wisely in preparing for the worst. After the great praises that had been given to the working people in the North, it would only be a graceful act if Parliament were next year to take this proposal into consideration. He was acquainted with the character of the working people of the North of England; they were a fine, manly, frank race. They did not like much receiving compliments; and if they found they paid them compliments, and did not afterwards trust them, they would not attach much value to their compliments. The registration for the ensuing year was over, and they would be entitled to vote until the next registration, whatever might happen in the mean time. [An hon. MEMBER: Not in case of a scrutiny.] In the case of a contested election there might be a scrutiny; and if there should be a scrutiny, the votes of persons receiving relief might be struck off. However, a scrutiny was a rare thing in election contests, and the question therefore was not of much practical importance. It was better for the Government to leave the question open, and it would be satis- 1081 factory to the working classes to know that the subject was made the matter of Imperial consideration.
§ MR. HADFIELDsaid, he would consent to withdraw the clause.
§ Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
MR. LYGONsaid, it was desirable that ratepayers of any union which contributed in aid to another union should be made acquainted with the manner in which their funds were dispensed. He would therefore move the following clause:—
(Chairman and Vice Chairman of Unions contributing may vote at Meetings of Guardians of the Union aided.)The chairman and vice chairman of the board of guardians of any union, parish, township, or incorporation, any part whereof is called upon to contribute in aid to another union, parish, township, or incorporation, shall be entitled to take part in the proceedings of the board of guardians administering the relief so contributed, and to vote thereupon, in like manner as if they were guardians of the poor within the union, parish, township, or incorporation receiving the contribution in aid.
§ MR. C. P. VILLIERSsaid, he did not object to the grounds on which the hon. Gentleman had moved his clause. He thought that the attendance of both the chairman and vice-chairman would be productive of some inconvenience; but he had prepared a clause to the same effect, which he would offer to the hon. Gentleman in lieu of his own. It was only right, however, to remind the House that the money to which the union would be called upon to contribute would be expended before the guardian took his seat at the board.
MR. HENLEYthought the clause proposed better than the one suggested by the Chairman of the Poor Law Board. Probably the cases would be few in which both the chairman and vice-chairman would attend, and if only one attended, the operation of the Amendment would be the same as that of the suggestion.
§ Clause withdrawn.
§
MR. C. P. VILLIERS moved the following Clause:—
(Where Parish contributes, the Guardians may elect Members to represent them at Board of Guardians of Union aided.)
7. After the making and issuing of any General Order for Contribution as aforesaid the Guardians of any Union or Parish or any Select Vestry upon whom the Order is made, and who have obeyed such Order, may elect One of their own Body to represent them at the Board of Guardians of the Union on whose Behalf such
1082
General Order has been made, and every Person so elected shall be entitled to act as a Guardian of such last-mentioned Union during the then current Quarter, but no such Person shall be entitled to vote in the Election of any Officer for that Union.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that if the Bill were put down on the Orders in the usual way, although the third reading might be carried in the Commons at the evening sitting, this might not be done sufficiently early to enable the Bill to be read a first time in another place the same evening, which, considering the state of the Session, was very desirable. Perhaps the House, under those circumstances, would allow the third reading to take place at once.
MR. HENLEYsaid, he had no objection, under the special circumstances of the case, to allow the Bill to be read a third time.
§ SIR JOHN SHELLEYsaid, he would not object to that course being taken on the present occasion, but he protested against this course being regarded hereafter as precedent. It had long been known that the distress existed in the manufacturing districts, and the Government ought to have introduced the Bill early enough to have afforded time for full discussion of the matter, without this undue amount of hurry.
§ MR. C. P. VILLIERSsaid, he had deferred the introduction of this measure at the special request of several boards of guardians in the manufacturing districts, who assured him that there was no occasion for special interference, and who begged to be allowed to manage the matter for themselves. Circumstances had, however, occurred which showed that the distress must increase to such a degree as to render the interposition of the Legislature necessary; and he then, and not till then, prepared the Bill.
§ MR. FITZGERALDsaid, it was a pity the Government had not intimated to the leaders of the Opposition their intention to move the third reading that morning. They might now come down at six o'clock, and find themselves shut out from the discussion. The precedent was one that might be the cause of much mischief hereafter.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he last evening communicated his intention of proposing the third reading this morning to a Member of the Opposition most likely to communicate with that side of the House; and if the hon. Member for Horsham (Mr. 1083 Fitzgerald) knew that any Member not now present wished to offer any observations on the third reading he would leave it to the evening sitting.
§ MR. FITZGERALDsaid, he was not aware that any hon. Member intended to make observations on the third reading; but he might add that he himself had not been made acquainted with the right hon. Baronet's intention to propose the third reading this morning. He trusted that the course now taken would not be followed as a precedent.
§ MR. SPEAKERsaid, that the House would not set any new precedent, because it had often, on occasions of urgency, done what it was now asked to do.
§ MR. DARBY GRIFFITHwished to bear testimony to the great temper as well as the conciliatory spirit manifested by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. C. P. Villiers) in the discussions on this Bill.
§ Bill read 3°, and passed.