HC Deb 28 April 1862 vol 166 cc1036-8

Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [4th April], "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

Question again proposed.

Debate resumed.

MR. M'MAHON

said, he should move that the Committee be deferred for six months. He regarded the Bill as a most extraordinary measure, especially after the great attention that had been paid in former years by distinguished men of all classes to the subject of a consolidation of the criminal law. Instead of a consolidating measure for the criminal law, he was surprised and disappointed at finding such a measure proposed, which was intended only to apply to Ireland.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "this House will, upon this day three months, resolve itself into the said Committee, —instead thereof.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he assured the hon. Member that the general feeling in Ireland was in favour of the Bill, and the Irish law officers were strongly in its favour. It had become necessary to change the law of last year by re-establishing in some form the Summary Jurisdiction Act of 1851, and this Bill was thought to be the best mode of attaining that object.

MR. BRADY

said, the Bill gave power to make an accusation upon suspicion, and threw upon the accused the burden of proving his innocence, a principle which would never be sanctioned for England. He could not admit that such a proposition would be popular in Ireland.

MR. HENNESSY

said, he would like to know if such a Bill would be tolerated in England. Clauses 4 and 5 appeared to be intended to punish poor persons for picking up fuel and sticks on the road, while Clause 6 threw the onus upon an individual suspected of a crime, of proving his innocence.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided:—Ayes 44; Noes 4: Majority 40.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

House in Committee.

Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.

Clause 4 (Stealing Trees).

MR. HENNESSY

said, he objected to a provision which made the stealing of trees anywhere punishable. No such law existed in England.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, it was a re-enactment of the old law.

MR. BRADY

said, he should oppose the clause. It was most unwise to have one law for Ireland and another for England,

MR. LOCKE

observed, that there was precisely the same law in England—the 24 & 25 Vict., c. 27, s. 22.

MR. M'MAHON

said, the Act the hon. and learned Gentleman referred to applied to Ireland. There could be no necessity for re-enacting that Bill for Ireland.

MR. AYRTON

said, he could not understand the object of re-enacting the law. He thought the Secretary for Ireland would do well either to withdraw the clause altogether, or to refer the Bill to a Select Committee.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL

observed that the clause was merely a re-enactment—a return to the state of the law which preceded the Consolidation Act of last session. With the exception of Clause 4, they were additional enactments; and if it were asked why there should be additional enactments for Ireland, the answer was, that these enactments were made to meet the circumstances of the country. With regard to Clause 4, there was this difference between the proposed clause and the law of England, that in England it must be declared on oath that the tree destroyed or stolen was of the value of one shilling, whereas that proof was not required in Ireland.

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes "30; Noes 12: Majority 18.

Clause agreed to.

COLONEL DICKSON

said, he would move that the Chairman report progress.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, he must oppose the Motion.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, he thought the result of the last two divisions showed the opinion of the House.

COLONEL DICKSON

said, he thought the presence of forty-two Members only at that hour of the night (twenty-five minutes past one) showed that the sitting ought not to continue.

Motion made, and Question put, "Thai the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 8; Noes 35: Majority 37.

MR. BRADY

said, he should then move that the Chairman leave the chair.

SIR ROBERT PEEL

said, it was impossible for the Government to resist the opposition to further progress to-night; but it was necessary to go on with the Bill.

MR. M'MAHON

said, he hoped the House would allow the question to be postponed till Thursday, when other Irish measures wore on the papers, and Irish landed Members would be present.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, the Government was so far in the hands of its opponents, because, though there were but eight of them, they might defeat it by beating a retreat. The Government must therefore yield.

MR. BRADY

said, he would withdraw the amendment.

House resumed. Committee report progress; to sit again on Thursday.

House adjourned at a quarter before Two o'clock.