§ Order for Second Reading read.
§ MR. VINCENT SCULLYsaid, he hoped no objection would be raised to his moving that the Bill be read a second time. The object he had in view was to have the Bill referred to a Select Committee. He had obtained leave to introduce 716 the Bill shortly after the commencement of the present Session. Its purpose was to enable the proprietors of land in Ireland to raise loans on debentures, to the amount of half the value of the property in respect to which the debentures were to be issued. He might state that the plan of land debentures was not new, though their application to Ireland, its proposed by the present measure, was novel, and would be found in practice extremely useful. The system had beep long in operation in Prussia, and had been likewise tried in France and Austria. There was, therefore, no good or valid reason that he had ever heard, or that had suggested itself to him, why they would not be found to work well in Ireland. If an estate was worth £20,000, the Bill would give the proprietor power to raise money on it to the extent of £10,000; and he might obtain debenture securities of the value of £100 each, on which interest would be payable, as in the case of a mortgage. It was many years since he had called attention to the subject. In 1853 he introduced in the House a very important scheme for the registration of titles, of which the system of land debentures formed a part. The latter proposal was considered by many as visionary; but after the introduction of his larger scheme a Royal Commission was appointed to consider the question of registration of titles, and his plan of land debentures was brought before the Commissioners, of whom he had the honour to be one. Having considered the measure, the Commissioners were of opinion that it formed no part of the subject which had been specially referred to them. They nevertheless stated in their Report that it had been spoken very highly of by competent authorities, and that it might be well to try it in Ireland, where the machinery of the Encumbered Estates Court, which had been superseded by the Landed Estates Court, was in operation to work it, and where strong opinions were expressed in favour of the measure. Amongst those who had given evidence in favour of a system of land debentures, he might mention the names of Judges Longfield and Hargreave, two of the Judges of the Landed Estates Court, whose long experience in dealing with questions connected with the sale and transfer of land in Ireland, entitled their opinions on the subject to much weight. He was glad to see that a measure to facilitate the transfer of land through a registry of titles, in many respects like the one which he had intro- 717 duced in 1853, had been brought Into the House of Lords by the Lord Chancellor, and that the question of land debentures had been taken up by the right hon. Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland under the administration of the Earl of Derby (Mr. Whiteside). That right hon. Gentleman had brought in a Land Debenture Bill a few nights ago, which had received a first reading. Under these circumstances he (Mr. Scully) thought it would be well to refer the Bill now before the House to a Select Committee, and to take the discussion as to its details at a future stage. He should mention that he had spoken to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, who had authorized him to say that he approved of the principle of the Bill. He had, indeed, received a letter to that effect from the noble and teamed Lord, which, with his express per Mission, he (Mr. Scully) would read to the House. It was as follows:—
34, Belgrave Square, April 9, 1862.My dear Sir,—I have read your Bill carefully, and have no objection to its principle, guarded as it is by the 8th, and by the 11th and 12th clauses.I have written to the Attorney General, recommending entire assent to the second reading. I think you must define, and if possible facilitate the remedies of the debenture holders.Yours sincerely,WESTBURY.Vincent Scully, Esq., M.P.No objection would, he believed, be made by Her Majesty's Government to the second reading of the Bill. He trusted the House would accede to the course which he now suggested, and allow the Bill to be read a second time, with the view of referring it to a Select Committee.
§ MR. SPEAKERThen the discussion cannot now be proceeded with, as, according to the Standing Orders of the House, no opposed business can be taken after a quarter to six o'clock.
§ MR VINCENT SCULLYOf course, if the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposes the Bill, it cannot be read a second time !at this moment.
§ MR. VINCENT SCULLYThen, I shall say the 7th of May for the second reading.
The order of the day for the second reading was then postponed until Wednesday the 7th of May.