WAYS AND MEAN.—REPORT. (Hansard, 27 July 1861)

§ SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY
said, that after the number of Supplementary Estimates which had been presented and voted, he wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he felt satisfied that the Ways and Means provived for the year would be sufficient to meet all the expenditure of the year. The right hon. Gentleman, in March last, had assumed that he would have a surplus of above £400,000, estimating the expenditure at a certain amount; but the expenditure had since considerably exceeded the Estimate, and he wished, therefore, to know whether sufficient Ways and Means were provided to meet the increase, and particularly the Vote for iron ships?

§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, he felt obliged to the hon. Baronet for giving him the opportunity of stating a few details in reference to the subject brought under the notice of the House, and at the same time he must say that he entirely concurred in an opinion which had been expressed, that nothing was more inconvenient on all general grounds than the introduction of Supplementary Estimates. Supplementary Estimates ought never to be introduced, except for strong and special reasons, and he trusted the House of Commons would always require strong and special reasons to be stated why the charges included in Supplementary Estimates were not presented at the regular period, when the other Estimates were laid upon the table. The Votes now alluded to by the hon. Baronet might be accounted for on special grounds. The principal Vote relating to iron ships was one connected with a great exceptional operation, which he would not call the reconstruction of the Navy, but a great transition in the mode of building ships of war; and the other Votes partook of the same special character. The effect of the changes made in the Votes was that the Estimate for the Army, including the Vote for the Volunteers, had, upon 1703 the whole, been increased by a sum of about £17,000. The Vote for the Navy had been increased by a sum of about £247,000, which very nearly corresponded with the amount voted for the iron ships. A Vote of £30,000 taken for the dowry of a Member of the Royal Family belonged to the head of Civil Services, and required no explanation. The charge for the Civil Services had been increased by about £133,000, the reason of that being that, while a Vote of £155,000 was asked for in order to pay the amount agreed on in respect to the Stade Dues, there had been some small set-off on the other side, which reduced the increase to £133,000. The presentation of a Supplementary Vote on account of the Stade Dues, which, in conjunction with the Vote for the iron ships, might be said to constitute substantially the whole of the changes which had been effected in the Estimates, required no apology from him. That charge being dependent entirely on the conclusion of diplomatic arrangements in concurrence with other countries, it was impossible, and if possible, it would have been unconstitutional to ask the House of Commons to make, either in form or substance, provision for its payment until the instrument was concluded which made the desired concurrence a matter of certainty. Therefore, it was impossible to present that charge to the House with the ordinary Estimates of the year; but, when once the instrument was concluded, it would have been highly expedient to postpone the completion of the arrangement until another year, and thereby cause the trade of the country to continue to be subject to the inconvenience of the Stade Dues, while the trade of other countries would be liberated from it. Therefore, as to the amount of £400,000, without going into minor items, there were very special grounds to justify on the present occasion a practice which he nevertheless asserted to be highly inconvenient. In the Packet Service Estimates there was a change consequent on the termination of the Galway contract, and after making allowance for some trifling changes in the revenue department, the general result was that, whereas the Budget Estimate exhibited a surplus for the year of about £408,000, and the present excess in the Votes over the estimated expenditure amounted to £361,000, that surplus had very nearly disappeared, there remaining only the almost nominal amount of about £47,000. He was asked 1704 the question, whether he now felt reasonable confidence in the Ways and Means for the year, and he had to say in reply that, in the absence of any extraordinary circumstances such as could not be foreseen or counted on, he felt the utmost confidence in their sufficiency. The operation of one very important measure of last year, which appeared more or less in doubt when he made the financial statement, had since the commencement of the financial year been satisfactory—he meant the measure imposing an additional duty on spirits. The revenue was, upon the whole, in a satisfactory state, and more than equalled the expectations he had expressed about three months ago.

MR. WHITE
wished to know, whether it was true that the hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Layard) had accepted office as Under Secretary of State. If it were true, it was not, in his opinion, so bad or questionable an appointment as that made in reference to the Chief Secretaryship for Ireland, an appointment which he hesitated not to say had carried the utmost dismay into the ranks to which he belonged in that House, as being evidence of a reactionary policy on the part of the Government. He had asked the other night whether the hon. Baronet was a member of the Carlton Club; and since he came into the House to-day he had received an assurance that the hon. Baronet was a member of that club, and that he was at the moment he was asking the question dining at the club. ["Oh, oh!"] The hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. Hope) said "Oh, oh!" These appointments might be satisfactory to him, but they were not so to Members below the gangway on the Ministerial side of the House, and he could only say if that appointment had been made a month ago the Government would at this moment have been on the other side of the House. If the appointment of the hon. Member for Southwark was a fact he thought some apology was due to him (Mr. White) from the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets, for when he (Mr. White), having watched the career of the hon. Member for Southwark, knowing his Ministerial proclivities, ventured to dissent from accepting that hon. Gentleman as a representative of hon. Members below the gangway, the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets assailed him in his own vigorous style, and brought down the cheers of hon. Members.

§ MR. SPEAKER
said, the hon. Member could not refer to past debates.

MR. WHITE
said, he merely wished to express his dissatisfaction and that of hon. Members below the gangway at the recent appointments, as an evidence of a reactionary policy on the part of the Government which would lead to their ruin. He would recommend them to put their House in order, for if those changes had taken place a month earlier they would now be occupying that (the Opposition) side of the House—not their present places.

§ SIR JOHN SHELLEY
said, he would put it to his hon. Friend whether it was a right course to attack an absent man. He should be sorry to have it supposed that the Liberal Members below the gangway deemed it their duty to dictate to the Government in reference to the appointment of individuals to public office. The responsibility for the appointments rested with the Ministry; and with regard to the hon. Member for Tamworth, no one could deny that the hon. Baronet had shown great talent. He was surprised that any observation should have been made on the appointment of the hon. Member for Southwark, because he had on every occasion taken an independent course with respect to the Government.

§ MR. G. W. HOPE
said, he had uttered the exclamation referred to by the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. White) not because he objected to his remarks, so far as they were political, for if the noble Lord thought the hon. Baronet could assist his Government, he was glad he had availed himself of his services. But he did complain that such private matters should be brought befere the House as where an hon. Member dined, and descriptions of the club to which he happened to belong. Such a course was not calculated to increase the efficiency of the House of Commons, or to further the public interest.