SECOND READING. (Hansard, 24 July 1861)

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
said, be rose to move the second reading of the Bill. It was the same in substance as that which was read, pro forma, a second 1429 time by the House in 1858, and, on the Motion of the then Solicitor General, the hon. and learned Member for Belfast, referred to the Committee on Lunacy. That Committee made a report in July last year, and their recommendations had in some respects been followed in the present measure. The object of the measure was twofold—to provide for the more frequent visiting of lunatics under the care of the Court of Chancery, and to diminish the expense of the procedure. Upon one point the Bill did not adopt the recommendations of the Committee. It did not, as they suggested, propose to transfer the care of Chancery lunatics from the visitors in lunacy to the Lunacy Commissioners. There were under the care of the Court of Chancery 626 lunatics, and their aggregate incomes amounted to 7pound;333,000 per annum—a sum abundantly sufficient for defraying the expense of visitation by the present visitors; and it would be found that the duties cast upon those visitors were abundantly sufficient to occupy the whole of time at their disposal. It would be also found that the time of the Lunacy Commissioners was fully occupied. They had under their care at present 35,955 patients in asylums and public institutions; and those patients were to be visited at least twice, and in some instances four times yearly. The House ought, therefore, if they adopted the recommendation in the report, either to diminish the sphere of duty, or add to the number of the Commissioners; and under the circumstances it was deemed advisable to depart from the recommendation of the Committee on that particular point.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

MR. HENLEY
said, he rose to ask the Government to postpone the Bill, at all events, for a week, until his right hon. Friend (Mr. Walpole), the Chairman of the Committee, who was prevented by domestic affliction from attending that day, should be in his place and have an opportunity of stating his objections to it. For his own part, he doubted whether the Bill were an improvement on the existing system, It was a remarkable fact that less care was taken of the rich Chancery lunatics than of any other persons so afflicted. The pauper lunatics were visited once a month, and the patients in public and private asylums were visited at least six times in the year; but Chancery lunatics only re- 1430 ceived one visit in the year, and sometimes eighteen months elapsed between the visits of the Chancery visitors. He saw no proposition in the Bill to secure the Chancery lunatics in future from a state of things which could only exist under the Court of Chancery. It was stated in evidence that one of the visitors suggested a certain course of action which he thought would be beneficial to the lunatics; but when the recommendation came under the vigilant eyes of the Chancery official, he immediately said it was impertinent, and ought not to be put in the report. What might have proved a consolation to the lunatics was struck our, and never came before the Lord Chancellor at all. At present the Chancery visitors consisted of three persons—two doctors and one lawyer—but the Bill provided that in future the visitors should be one doctor and one lawyer. As there were 626 lunatics scattered all over the country they could hardly receive more than one visit each in the year from those gentlemen. There was certainly a provision that lunatics wore not to be seen less than twice in the year, but the only machinery by which it could be carried into effect was cut out of the Bill. He would not give much for visits that were to be made in such a hurried manner. It was provided that the doctor and lawyer need not visit the patients at the same time, but he could not see how the condition of a lunatic was to be improved by the visit of a lawyer. The provision of the Bill which gave a new power of dealing with the property of lunatics under a certain amount was as Important as any in the Bill. He deemed it a beneficial provision, but its advantage would be very much impaired if these unfortunate persons, seattered all over the country, were to he driven up to one of the Chancery offices in London to get the benefit of the proposed arrangement. There ought to be some machinery by which the benefit of that provision might be more easily obtainable over the length and breadth of the land. There was a clause in the Bill enabling pensions to be given to the present visitors, but he did not know on what principle they were supposed to be entitled to pensions at all. He would, therefore, move the postponement of the second reading for a week, in order that his right hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge University, who had devoted so much time and attention to the subject, might have an opportunity of urging whatever objections he entertained to the measure.
1431 Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
said, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not persevere in his Motion. He the (Attorney General) would not ask for the Committee till that day week, so that every object which the right hon. Gentleman who was absent (Mr. Walpole) had in view might be secured.

MR. HENLEY
said, he understood his right hon. Friend (Mr. Walpole) to object to the second reading of the Bill at all.

§ MR. CONINGHAM
said, he had come down to oppose the Bill. He could not but condemn the proposals for compensation in the Bill; and it was his strong opinion that, considering the amount of work to be done, it would be far better to appoint two medical men as visitors than one medical man and one lawyer.

§ SIR GEORGE GREY
said, that if the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Henley) persisted in the Motion he had made, it would preclude the Bill from being gone on with that Session. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would agree to the proposal of his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General to go into Committee on that day week. The Bill was brought in with the approbation of the Lunacy Commissioners and the late Lord Chancellor. The present Lord Chancellor was also of opinion that some change was necessary, but he did not regard that Bill as a final arrangement. He believed the Lord Chancellor thought that the two visitors should both be medical men. He was much dissatisfied with the present arrangement, and he thought it better to make some such change as that now proposed, to provide that amount of supervision which was necessary for the safety of the patients.

MR. HENLEY
said, that after the statement of the right hon. Baronet he would take the course suggested, on the understanding that his right hon. Friend (Mr. Walpole), on that day week, should not be considered to take an improper course if, on going into Committee, he brought forward a Motion on the subject. He believed the great objection to the Bill was that it would stand in the way of a consolidation of the law relating to Chancery lunatics. Perhaps the hon. and learned Attorney General would consider whether the Bill could not be limited as to time.