HC Deb 18 July 1861 vol 164 cc1090-3
MR. GREGORY

said, he wished to ask the First Commissioner of Works, Whether it is true that the four Statues to be erected in the Royal Gallery, for which £3,200 have been voted, are to be the Statues of William IV., George IV., James I., and Charles I.; and, if so, whether such selection is in accordance with the pledge given to the House by the Commissioner of Works, August 3, I860?

MR. COWPER

Sir, I cannot plead guilty to having been so sanguine as to give what my hon. Friend has called a pledge on such a subject. When a Member of the Government obtains a Vote from Parliament any explanation he may give in reference to that Vote may fairly be considered a pledge, which ought to be rigorously and scrupulously observed. And I trust I shall never be open to the charge of having swerved by one hair's breadth from any pledge that I may give. I must remind my hon. Friend that the case to which he has alluded is the opposite of this. No Vote of money was obtained from the House, and I made no explanation with reference to an expenditure that was not voted. All I did was to explain why I withdrew the Vote, and did not ask the House to come to any decision on the subject. This is a matter that rather concerns my personal reputation, and I may, therefore, be allowed to state a few words in explanation. Last year the Estimates contained an item for a series of statues of British Sovereigns to be placed in various parts of the Palace of Westminster, and reference was made in that item to the Report of the Fine Arts Commission of 1845. The House was rather alarmed at agreeing to this item, for fear of being considered to adopt all the recommendations of that Commission, and of pledging itself to the erection of forty of these statues. That objection on the part of the House was felt to be valid, The Government did not wish to pledge the House to carry into effect the whole scheme of the recommendation of the Fine Arts Commission and the Vote was withdrawn. It was considered desirable that a portion of the whole number should be selected, and I withdrew the Vote, with the view of considering whether it would be possible that a selection could be made that would be generally acceptable to the House. When the Fine Arts Commission met I called their attention to the subject, and they considered whether such a selection could be made as would be generally acceptable to the House. I never pledged myself that such a selection would be made, but only that I would consider "whether a selection could not be made that would be acceptable to the House." That pledge was redeemed. That selection was considered, and the Commission were of opinion that it was inadmissible. Therefore, I kept my pledge, which was to have a selection considered, for I never was rash enough to pledge myself that a selection would be made that should be generally acceptable to the House. Indeed, I could not have answered for the Commission to that extent. The Fine Arts Commission met. They had first to decide on what principles any selection should be made. Was it to be founded upon the personal qualities of various Sovereigns, or the greatness of the events that occurred during their reigns, or their political tendencies? The personal qualities of the Sovereigns were not, in the opinion of the Commission, the cause of their being represented in this building. The original intention of decorating this House and of encouraging artists could be appropriately attained by statues of Sovereigns, as illustrative of the history of the country. All persons of education, required to know the names of the Sovereigns and the period of their reigns, and it seemed to the Commission of Fine Arts that the right view was not to select any Sovereign who had more admirers than another, but to take them in chronological order as illustrative of the history of the country. This view was taken in the Report of the Fine Arts Commission, which lay upon the Table when this Vote was on the paper. I remember I stated that the view I took was that the Commission had made their selection according to chronological order, and not in regard to the personal qualities of the Sovereigns. The completion of the series was left open to future consideration. The House determined that a certain sum should be given under the direction of the Fine Arts Commission for the erection of statues of four British Sovereigns. The House can in future either increase the number or leave the series incomplete.

MR. GREGORY

said, he had another question to put. He would beg to ask, Whether, when the Government the other night refused to give any information as to the names of the Sovereigns selected by the Fine Arts Commission, the right hon. Gentleman had not at the time in his possession the Report of the Fine Arts Commission, which stated that they had given two of these statues to Mr. Theed and two to Mr. Thornycroft; and whether the statues are not those he had mentioned?

MR. COWPBR:

I had in ray possession what every lion Member of this House also had in his possession—the Report of the Commission of Fine Arts, which I now hold in my hand. I thought the House understood that the money would be spent under the direction of the Commission of Fine Arts, arid this Report enabled them to judge how far the Commission of Fine Arts had decided upon the statues.

MR. HADFIELD

said, he wished also to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question. [" Order, order !"] It bore directly upon the question before the House. Was it intended that Cromwell should have a statue?

MR. COWPER:

I can only refer the hon. Gentleman to the Report of the Fine Arts Commission. If he will read that Report, and it is not very long, he will know as much about the matter as I do.