HC Deb 10 July 1861 vol 164 cc673-82

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

MR. T. DUNCOMBE

said, he rose to move as an Amendment that the Bill be committed that day three months. The measure contained provisions deeply affecting the feelings of the labouring classes of the country, and involved a breach of faith on the part of the Government, as two years ago they had agreed that there should be no compulsory legislation on the subject until after a Parliamentary investigation into it had taken place. With regard to vaccination much good might be done, provided persuasion and not coercion were used. Even at the present day medical men differed in opinion as to the efficacy of vaccination. The rage for it which existed at one time had very much evaporated, and if a Committee were appointed he had authority for saying that many eminent medical authorities, both at home and abroad, would be ready to give that Committee that results of their experience on the subject. Some said that vaccination was altogether useless, but, generally speaking, the opinion was in its favour so long as it was not made compulsory. One party would tell them that vaccination only held good for seven years, while another contended that if it were properly done it would last a man's lifetime. Where vaccination had failed as a protection against smallpox the answer invariably given was, that it was not properly done in the first instance. That, however, was a mistake. There were some constitutions which would not take the cowpox at all, and to which, therefore, it was no defence whatever. Be that, however, as it might, there existed a feeling among the people of the country generally that the authorities had no right, in order to carry out a particular theory, to take polluted matter from one person's arm and place it on that of another. There were medical men who maintained that the matter produced in some instances scrofula, consumption, and venereal diseases. When the lymph was taken from arm to arm it no longer was the cowpox which Jenner recommended, and which was to be taken direct from the cow. At all events, however if vaccination was desirable it should not be done under Act of Parliament, and he very much inclined to the opinion expressed by the late Sir Robert Peel when he said that The proposal to make it compulsory was so contrary to the spirit of the British people, and the independence in which they rightly gloried, that he would be no party to such compulsion. Under these circumstances he would recommend that the Bill be withdrawn for the present Session, and next Session, when an inquiry had taken place, a measure on the subject might be introduced. The hon. Member concluded by moving that the Bill be committed that day three months.

MR. CONINGHAM

seconded the Motion.

Amendment proposed, To leave out form the word 'That' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words 'this House will, upon this day three months resolve itself into the said Committee.'

—instead thereof.

MR. LOWE

said, he hoped to have been spared the necessity of going at any length into this question, but the interests involved were of such transcendant importance that he could not refrain, in reply to the hon. Member, from placing a satisfactory and triumphant case before the Committee. The history of the measure was this. In 1853 Parliament passed an Act for compulsory vaccination; and that Act was for a time in operation, but as there was a defect in the Act, arising from the want of a provision by which those who prosecuted under it might obtain their expenses, the Act fell into desuetude. When the present Government was formed in 1859 he introduced a Bill to make what then remained of the Board of Health perpetual, and that Bill contained a clause remedying the defect he had just mentioned, but being pressed by the hon. Member for Finsbury on the subject, he, in order to pass the Bill, gave up the clause. It was a bitter reflection to him that he gave up the clause; but had he not done so he believed that he should have lost the measure altogether; yet he was convinced that the abandonment of the clause had occasioned the loss of many thousands of lives in this country. He was, therefore, determined to attempt to remedy the defect; and if the House would not support him, upon the House must fall the responsibility. He was almost ashamed to take up the time of the House by arguing respecting the efficacy of vaccination. From 1837 to 1840 the deaths from smallpox amounted to 12,000 a year; form 1840 to 1853, during which period vaccination by the Poor Law Boards was established, the annual average of deaths was only 5,200, so that it appeared that the diffusion of vaccination had reduced the mortality by more than one-half. Then came the period when the compulsory law came into operation, and its first effect was remarkable. The number of vaccinations enormously increased, and the deaths diminished. In 1854 they sank to 2,808. In the next year the deaths sank still lower, amounting only to 2,525. Afterwards they gradually increased up to the present time, the Act having, as he had already explained, fallen into desuetude, and thus the efficacy of vaccination was satisfactorily established. In 1859 and 1860, when there was a smallpox epidemic in London, and when the Act of 1853 was found not to work, the Board of Health, doing that which was rather irregular for a public office, set up an agitation to induce the Boards of Guardians to supply the deficiency of the law, and the report of the medical officer confirmed what the Board of Health knew before—that when vaccination fell into neglect the smallpox showed itself to be the same terrible pestilence as before Jenner made his valuable discovery. The first effect of this agitation was that the vaccinations in London were raised to five times their average amount, thus showing the enormous amount of neglect which had existed in respect to the matter. Those engaged in the agitation divided London into two districts, one of which they inspected, and in that district the deaths from smallpox were reduced, after inspection, from 621 to 231. The Committee might, therefore, from some idea of the amount of human life and misery that might be saved by the timely application of the remedy of vaccination, and it was ascertained by those who undertook the duty of inspection that before Jenner's invention, two-thirds of the persons in the blind hospitals had been rendered blind by the smallpox. The disease fell in a fatal form on children under five years of age; and it was a curious fact that children vaccinated, however imperfectly, under five years, scarcely ever had the smallpox under that age. In 1857 a circular was sent from the office of the Board of Health to 539 of the most eminent medical men in the country and in foreign parts, and the answers received from all, with the exception of two, were to the effect that vaccination conferred a very great exemption from the smallpox, an almost absolute security against death from that disease, and rendered people less susceptible of other diseases. The list included the names of Dr. Acland, Dr. Babington, Sir Benjamin Brodie, Sir James Clarke, Mr. Ferguson, Dr. Latham, Dr. Locock. Would the House be doing wisely, then, after being made acquainted with the verdict of so many eminent medical men, now to appoint a Committee of Inquiry on the subject? He had mentioned that the terrible malady of smallpox, whenever it attacked children of tender years, fell heavily upon them, and that vaccination was a protection against it; and now let them consider what a great responsibility they would take upon themselves, if, in the face of the almost unanimous opinion of medical men, to which he had just referred, they left unvaccinated children—who could exercise no discretion of their own on the subject—to perish, and also to communicate a dreadful contagion throughout the country. It would be profaning liberty, self-government, and independence, to say that any man had a right to set up his own sordid or brutal prejudices against such opinions as those he had quoted to the exposure of his child to disease and death. Those were his reasons for advocating compulsory vaccination. As to the alleged objection of the poor of the country to such a proposition, he saw no proofs of it. The Bill had been printed for three weeks, and he had not hitherto observed that any petition against it had been presented from that class, or that any objection had been taken to it in any way. He was assured by his inspectors throughout the country that the unions were glad to see them in every case without exception, and that their advice was cheerfully listened to. He was also informed by them that there was no indisposition on the part of the people to vaccination. Ignorance and apathy were found to exist, but he was quite satisfied that if once the people understood that the law which required children to be vaccinated was to be carried into execution it would not be necessary to enforce the law, for it would be obeyed as a matter of course. Naturally, there existed an enormous difference in the ways in which vaccination was performed, and in asking for compulsory powers the State was bound to give every guarantee that those powers should not be abused; consequently, in different parts of the country educational vaccination institutions had been founded, where persons were vaccinated and pupils taught. The quantity of lymph had been doubled and could be increased with the greatest facility and in perfect efficiency to any extent as required. Rules under the Act had also been issued, requiring boards of guardians to contract with on one but regularly qualified practitioners for the purpose of vaccination, and no deputies except of the medical profession would be allowed. More he would do if he knew how, but he hoped the House was satisfied that as far as they could they had endeavoured to promote the great object of vaccination. There was a theory started that the efficacy of vaccination was wearing out, but the valuable discovery of Mr. Seeley had set any doubts on that point at rest for ever. That gentleman had proved that the virus taken from the human body and introduced into that of the cow produced the cowpox. It was thus evident that they had means of obtaining lymph for the necessary power to any extent. The efficiency of vaccination was becoming greater and greater every day, owing to the beautiful discovery that its security could be increased almost indefinitely by increasing the number of punctures. But if there were no means of improving the effect of vaccination, still, under any circumstances, it was an enormous boon to man, for out of 1,000 persons who took smallpox without being vaccinated, 350 died, while out of 1,000 who, after being badly vaccinated, took the smallpox, only 150 died, and out of 1,000 who were well vaccinated, and afterwards took the smallpox, only five died. The Bill which he wished to pass into law was very simple. All that it enacted was that the Poor Law Boards might appoint persons to prosecute under the Bill those whom the medical officers reported ought to be prosecuted, and to allow the expenses of prosecution to be paid out of the poor rates, unless the magistrates should be of opinion that the information was improperly brought. He confined the power of recovering the expenses to official persons in the next clause, which provided for the appropriation of the penalties, and on these simple provisions turned the whole question whether compulsory vaccination should prevail or not. The subject was one with respect to which he felt the deepest anxiety, and he did not, for the reasons which he had stated, deem it consistent with his duty to accede to the Motion of the hon. Member for Finsbury.

MR. MITFORD

said he was astonished to hear that any educated man could now entertain a doubt of the advantage of vaccination as a preventive to smallpox. In one parish in the union with which he was connected, eighteen births had during the last half-year taken place, and yet only two children had been vaccinated. He hoped, therefore, that Government would succeed in carrying out the measure under discussion, inasmuch as the present system of vaccination was wholly inefficient.

MR. LOWE

said, he wished to supply some figures which in the course of his remarks he was unable to lay hands upon. He found that the number of deaths from smallpox was —in 1856, 2,227; in 1857, 3,336; in 1858, 6,460; while in 1859, owing, he believed, mainly to the exertions made in agitating the question, the number had fallen to 3,840.

MR. CONINGHAM

said, he was of opinion that the State had no right to interfere in the mode proposed by the Government. N doubt if they could be satisfied that all the assumptions of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lowe) were founded on facts, his argument would be conclusive; but when they had to deal with figures, they knew they might be made to prove anything. The names of medical men of eminence had been quoted by the right hon. Gentleman in support of his views; but the saying, "There is nothing like leather," might be applicable to the medical as well as to other professions. He thought that the right hon. Gentleman had overlooked the great sanitary improvements which had taken place in their towns and cities, and, for his own part, he would rather see that system of sanitary improvement completed. He would ra- ther see the cause of disease removed than a remedy provided, which, after all, was of extremely doubtful effect, and he thought the suggestion of the hon. Member for Finsbury one of a very reasonable character.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

House in Committee.

(In the Committee.)

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2 (Expenses of Prosecutions),

MR. AYRTON

said, by the provisions of the clause it was sought to be enacted that a number of officers named should be at liberty to institute a prosecution against offenders under the Bill, and that whatever expenses they incurred, unless a justice certified to the contrary, should be payable out of the poor-rates of the parish in which the offending person resided. The system of legislation thus proposed to be carried into effect he could only characterize as perfectly novel, and he hoped that the Government would consent to amend the clause, by providing that the expenses in question should be allowed if the Judge before whom the prosecution was instituted certified that such ought to be the case. Under the operation of the clause as it stood the prosecutor would naturally not ask the Judge for a certificate at all, and expenses might thus be allowed when they ought not to be given.

MR. LOWE

said, he was of opinion that the clause as it stood answered the purpose. As a general rule the party was entitled to indemnity for what he did, and it would be hard to deprive him of that indemnity except upon very strong grounds.

MR. HENLEY

remarked that the words of the clause were very wide, and might be construed to go beyond the costs actually incurred in a prosecution. The common rule in cases of the kind was to give the costs if they saw fit. He saw no reason why that rule should be departed from on this occasion. The clause gave no discretion to the magistrates, but only gave them the power of refusing the expenses in a special case—namely, if the proceedings had been improperly instituted. He also could have wished that the Government had taken steps to insure that the lymph employed in vaccination was really good lymph. In his county, the people held a notion that the vaccine matter made use of not only did not protect them from smallpox, but induced other diseases.

MR. LOWE

said, that what was desired in that case was not costs, but indemnity.

MR. LOCKE

said, he thought that the clause required alteration.

MR. CONINGHAM

said, it was a gross and arbitrary infringement of the liberty of the subject to empower the police, as the agent of the Government, to go into private families and insist on the performance of an operation to which some parents might have a strong and, perhaps, well-founded objection. For his own part, he declared that he would not obey the law if there were ten Acts of Parliament.

MR. LOWE

expressed his readiness to defer to the wish of the Committee, that the justice should certify that expenses were to be paid, and that he should also fix the amount.

Amendmentagreed to.

MR. AYRTON

said, he also wished to call attention to the last part of the clause, which provided that the costs were to be paid out of the rates of that particular parish in which the offender happened to live. He thought they should come out of the common fund of the union.

SIR BALDWIN LEIGHTON

said, he was afraid that if the charge were to be placed upon the union, and not upon the parish, the parishioners would take no pains to have the law carried into effect.

MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURT

said, that if the parishioners had no control over the matter, which he believed to be the case, the expenses ought in fairness to be charged upon the common fund of the union.

MR MITFORD

said, he believed the parishioners had an indirect control.

MR. HENLEY

asserted, on the contrary, that the control rested entirely with the Board of Guardians. The expenses, therefore, should be paid by the union.

MR. LOWE

said, he would remind the Committee that the Bill would be the means of lessening the rates of parishes. It was only fair, therefore, that parishes should pay some of the expenses. The clause as it stood would have the effect of enlisting the parishioners on the side of the law.

MR. KENDALL

was persuaded that the Bill would not work at all if the expenses were not laid on the common fund of the Union.

MR. AYRTON

said, that the Chinese principle of punishing a man with the view of compelling him to make another obey the law had never been acted upon in this country, and he did not think it would be wise to adopt it now. He proposed the insertion of the following words, "payable out of the common fund of the Union." All the original charges for vaccination were paid out of the common fund, and he saw no reason why an exception should be made in this case.

Amendment proposed, In page 2, lines 14 and 15, to leave out the words 'rates for relief of the poor of the parish,' in order to insert the words 'common fund of the union.'

MR. LOWE

said, he was ready to defer to the opinion of the Committee, but it struck him that the clause was better as it stood. By placing the expenses on the parish the advantage would be gained of making it the interest of the parishioners to see the law carried into effect.

MR. HENLEY

said, he thought that all the charges for vaccination should go together.

MR. BARROW

remarked, that boards of guardians were directed to provide for the vaccination of all children born, not in particular parishes, but in the Union. There could be no question, therefore, as to where the costs should come from.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 70; Noes 44: Majority 26.

On the Question that the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill,

MR. T. DUNCOMBE

said, he objected to parents being held responsible until their children arrived at the age of twenty-one. There ought to be some limit—there or five years.

MR. LOWE

said, he thought that so long as a parent might be considered to have a legitimate control over his child, and to be answerable for its conduct, the law should hold him responsible. He did not become more entitled to consideration because he had neglected his duty for a great number of years.

MR. HASSARD

inquired whether the Bill was to extend to Ireland?

MR. LOWE

replied in the negative.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 3 (Application of Penalties),

MR. HENLEY

said, he objected to the proposal to give penalties to informers. He could not conceive a greater curse than such a practice. It had been aban- doned in a great many cases; and, in fact, the right hon. Gentleman who had charge of the Bill had admitted the principle, because he had placed the power of laying information in the hands of public officers. Now, public officers ought never to have penalties, but should be remunerated for their time in the ordinary way.

MR. LOWE

said, he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman, and would consent to strike out the objectionable words of the clause.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

House resumed.

Bill reported, as amended, to be considered To-morrow.