THE STADE DUES.—QUESTION. (Hansard, 15 February 1861)

§ LORD JOHN RUSSELL

The hon. Gentleman the Member for Lanarkshire 480 (Mr. B. Cochrane) has put a Question respecting the annexation of Mentone and Roquebrune to the French Empire. The state of the case is this:—Ventimiglia is the boundary of the kingdom of Sardinia, according to the arrangements that have been made. Nice, also, till last year, belonged to the kingdom of Sardinia, though a separate county. Between Nice and Ventimiglia are those two communes— Roquebrune and Mentone, the latter a large and beautiful town on the borders of the sea. On the borders of the sea, likewise, is the town of Monaco itself. With regard to Mentone and Roquebrune, there has been, at various times, and for a long period, a contest between the Kings of Sardinia, as Dukes of Savoy, and the Princes of Monaco. Of late years the Kings of Sardinia have said it was exceedingly inconvenient to those towns which were between different portions of their dominions—enclosed, as it were, within their territories—should be the cause of disturbances, and should prevent the operations of the Customs and. other laws. In 1848, there was a declaration on the part of these towns, first, that they would throw off the domination of the Princes of Monaco, and become an independent State; and, next, that they wished to be annexed to Sardinia. The Sardinian Government thereupon placed in them a small garrison, consisting of forty or fifty men. The Prince of Monaco endeavoured to procure a restoration of the towns; and the British Government declared that they could not consider that transaction to be lawful, or that those places had any right to separate themselves from Monaco. But the Sardinians kept the towns. Last year, however, the position of affairs was materially changed; because Nice, instead of being part of the kingdom of Sardinia, was coded to the Emperor of the French, was occupied by French troops, and was placed under French laws. A totally different situation of affairs had thus arisen. The King of Sardinia had no longer the power to say that those two towns were enclosed within his own territories. At the same time, as the hon. Gentleman has said or implied, a part of the mountain district came into the hands of the French Government. This territory of the Prince of Monaco was not five miles broad, and part of the Alpine range became annexed to the French Empire. The Prince of Monaco had not for a long time received any revenue from 481 these towns. The Emperor of the French offered him 4,000,000f, for them, which it was supposed would yield a revenue of 120,000f, or something under £5,000 a year. That sum was accepted by the Prince of Monaco, and he even wished to place Monaco itself under the protection of the Emperor of the French. The French Government, in answer to that proposal, said that Monaco was recognized as an independent principality by the Treaty of Vienna; that they wished to leave it so; and that they did not ask for anything more than they had obtained by that convention. I cannot see that there is any great political importance to be attached to this transaction. That territory of Ventimiglia was the frontier of the Italian Kingdom before this, and it still remains so; and all the declarations which the Sardinian Government has made are applicable to that frontier, and not to those towns.

The hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Griffith) has put to me a Question, to which if I do not give a decisive answer, I have only as my excuse to ask hon. Members to read that Question. The Question is— Whether it is to he understood that it is the meaning and intention of Her Majesty's Government to give any encouragement to the idea that any scheme having for its object the retention of any part of the temporal sovereignty of the Pope, as a possible solution of the Italian question, could under any circumstances, he satisfactory to or acceptable to the Italian people? I profess myself quite unable to give a precise or specific answer to that Question, as it passes my comprehension to know what it means. I have only to say that the only idea to which the Government has given any encouragement is the idea that the Italians ought to be left to themselves to settle their own affairs. Therefore, if the King of Sardinia and his Holiness the Pope can come to any arrangement satisfactory to themselves, I do not think it is likely that Her Majesty's Government will interfere. As to any "idea" about the temporal and spiritual power of the Pope I will not venture to say anything on the subject.

The hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Digby Seymour) has asked me a Question with regard to the Stade Tolls, I have to state that after various and long discussions the opinion of the law officers of the Crown amounted to this,—that although we might dispute the validity and locality of the Stade Duties, yet we could not do 482 so without complicating the negotiations to such a degree that the only practicable mode of settlement was by paying an indemnity. When we entered into negotiations on that footing Hanover, no doubt, was well disposed to consider the question; but she said it would be a serious detriment to her if she made such an arrangement as would enable one Power to claim exemption from the toll, as in that case every other Power would come to be exempted also, and her entire income from that source would cease. The arrangement ultimately proposed was that one-third should be contributed by Great Britain, one-third by Hamburg, and another third by all the States which now contribute to the payment of the toil. But, at the same time, the Government of Hanover said, it could not agree to carry that arrangement into effect unless six-sevenths of the last third were undertaken to be paid by all the other States. The Board of Trade made objections to this last proposal; but the Hanoverian Minister has expressed the strongest hopes that that payment will be made by all the States. I understand the Question of the hon. and learned Member to be, whether, supposing we get a Vote in this House to pay the portion of the indemnity undertaken to be paid by Great Britain, the British flag will then be exempt from the toll. I have to answer that hitherto the Hanoverian Government have stood on this ground, that they cannot allow any one State to be exempted till an arrangement is made for the payment of the whole toll.