§ SIR HUGH CAIRNSsaid, he wished to put a question in reference to the proceedings under the Convention between this country and Brazil. During the last Session he had asked the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary the reason why the proceedings under that Convention, by which the interests of many mercantile firms in this country were affected had been suspended. The noble Lord could not give any answer at that time, because some questions that had arisen had been referred to the law officers of the Crown. From information that had since arrived in England he understood the affair was in this position:—Brazil had under the Convention made some claims of an extraordinary character against this country, created by the exertions of England to suppress the slave trade with Brazil. The result of these claims was that the British Minister at Brazil wailed for instructions from home, and in the interval the proceedings under the Convention were suspended. He wished to ask, Whether it was likely these proceedings would recommence, and whether there was any reason why the claims of Brazil against this country should not be asserted in the usual way; also whether the Government would object to lay on the table any papers showing the nature of those claims?
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONSir, I quite go along with the right hon. and gallant Officer opposite in the feelings he has expressed with regard to Captain Brabazon. It is very painful for the relatives of that gallant officer to be kept in a state of doubt as to his fate, more distressing than a certainty adverse to their hopes. 1, therefore, entirely sympathize with the anxiety the right hon. and gallant Officer has so well expressed to ascertain, if possible, the real truth as to what has happened to that gallant and distinguished officer Captain Brabazon. But, putting together all the circumstances from which we can draw any conclusion, I am afraid we cannot arrive at the conclusion expressed by my hon. Friend on this side of the House. I am afraid the friends of Captain Brabazon can only receive this consolation, that, by the suddenness with which his fate was sealed we may conclude he escaped those lingering and barbarous torments to which his still more unfortunate comrades were subjected in their last hours. At the same time, if it is possible to entertain any hopes 1187 of his surviving, I can assure the gallant General and the House that my noble Friend at the head of the Foreign Office has taken every means that can be taken to clear up this mystery. As far back as February the noble Lord sent out most stringent instructions to Mr. Bruce to take every means, official and unofficial, for the purpose of ascertaining distinctly the fate of Captain Brabazon; and I am bound in justice to the Russian Government to say that, as it was sending a new Minister to Pekin, instructions were given to him by his Government that the first duty he had to perform was to use every means in his own power, and to co-operate with Mr. Bruce in clearing up the fate of this gallant officer. At the same time there is no kindness in endeavouring to encourage hopes so likely to prove unfounded; it is better that those interested in the fate of Captain Brabazon should, if possible, take the darkest view of the matter till the certainty can be arrived at. And there is also this circumstance to be considered—I believe the Chinese authorities have accounted for all the prisoners except two—Captain Brabazon and the Abbé De Luc. They either sent them back living, or their bodies were produced; and if the bodies of these two gentlemen were thrown into a canal, as represented, that will account for their not being produced after the demand for them. I should be too happy if the supposition of my hon. Friend should turn out true. If so, I have no doubt the influence of the British, French, and Russian Governments will effect the release of those two gentlemen from the duresse in which my hon. Friend supposes they may have been kept by the Chinese authorities. With regard to that point, my noble Friend has taken the steps I have described, and I am not aware that any other steps can possibly be taken in the present state of the matter.
With respect to the other question put by the noble Lord (Lord Robert Cecil) on the transaction in which Captain Macdonald was concerned, the whole of that transaction is explained in the papers that have been laid before Parliament. I can only say, I do not think that any expression used by my noble Friend at the head of the Foreign Office during the discussion is a bit too strong to stigmatize the conduct of the Prussian officials. It is not for us to stand here and bandy vituperation with M. Möller or any one else; but I only say that I agree with the opinion 1188 expressed by the noble Lord in his concluding despatch; and though we are told by the law officers of the Crown that the whole proceedings were within the limits of the Prussian law, I think they were of a most unfriendly character, and most unworthy of a Government in alliance with England. I must say I am astonished that a Government like that of Prussia, represented in its foreign department by a distinguished nobleman, who spent many years in England in a diplomatic capacity, and who should himself, therefore, know the feelings and habits of the people of this country—I am astonished that the Prussian Government, looking, as it was bound to look, at the circumstances of the case, should not at once have said, "Our officials have not overstepped our law; we are bound to tell you that; but, summum jus summa injuria. We know that if a similar case had occurred in England, you, the English Government, would have gone before our demands to make every honourable apology and every compensation—if compensation were necessary—and we feel it due to ourselves, as a great Power in Europe, to tell you that we entirely condemn the conduct of our officials, and are ready to make every satisfaction which, as between gentleman and gentleman, Captain Macdonald could require." The Prussian Government had every motive for doing this. It is impossible to cast your eye over the face of Europe and to note the relations of the different Powers to each other without seeing that it is the interest of Prussia to cultivate, not the friendship of the English Government only, but the good opinion and the goodwill of the English nation; and, therefore, I should say that their conduct in this affair has been that which a distinguished French diplomatist has described—it has been a blunder as well as a crime. I am asked what steps the British Government have taken, or can take in this matter. It was impossible to have demanded from the Prussian Government either compensation or apology if they were unwilling to make it, because we were told by the law officers of the Crown that, however harsh, unjust, arbitrary, and violent their proceedings were, yet those proceedings appeared to be within the limits of the Prussian law. One regrets, for the sake of the Prussians, that they should have such a law. But that being the case, it was impossible for the British Government to press any demand upon the Government of Prussia. Well, then, what warning are 1189 we to give to British subjects who are about to travel in Prussia, as to such acts? Sir, I think the notoriety which this transaction has received, both through the newspapers all over the country, and through the discussions in this House, will prove as great a warning as could be given individually to gentlemen desiring passports for Prussia. I think, however, that a warning will also have been given to the Prussian Government when they know, as they will, the universal indignation with which this proceeding has inspired every Englishman; and, whatever influences may operate, as they no doubt do—party influences, for instance—upon the feelings of persons in authority, I think that that which has happened is not very likely to happen again.
With regard to the question put to me by the hon. Baronet (Sir James Fergusson) respecting Syria, I am sorry to say that I do not think it would be consistent with the public interest to produce any papers on the subject to which his question relates—namely, what Government is to be established in Syria as a permanent arrangement? These arrangements are not yet settled. They are still under discussion by the members of the Commission—by the Turkish Government and the different Powers represented in the Commission—and until the Commissioners have come to some conclusion and a settlement is made it would not be desirable or useful to produce the different arguments which each party may have urged in favour of the particular modification supposed by him to be the best. I can only say that I. believe all the Powers are equally desirous of accomplishing the same ultimate object—namely, that of securing to Syria the authority and the Government most likely to prevent the recurrence of those unfortunate events which have led to the occupation of Syria by a French force.
The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Newdegate) has asked me a question founded upon a paragraph which he has read from the Indépendance Belge, stating that certain contingent arrangements have been made with reference to the death of the Pope, his abdication, or other cessation of his authority. This statement was copied into one of the English papers, where I have seen it, hut all I can say is that the Government have received no information in any degree bearing out the statement. Of course i cannot pretend to know what are the rules and laws by which the Papal 1190 Government is directed, but I should very much doubt whether it is in the power of an existing Pope to make during his lifetime arrangements for carrying on the Government, ecclesiastical or temporal, after his death. That, however, is a matter on which I am not competent to form an opinion. I can only repeat that we have no information which at all corroborates the statement of the Belgian newspapers.
The hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Sir Hugh Cairns) asked a question respecting the discussions that have gone on between the British and Brazilian Governments as to certain claims made on the part of British subjects. He is quite right in saying that the conferences have been suspended. They were suspended in consequence of the Brazilian Government putting forward claims which we think totally inadmissible—namely, that losses sustained by Certain Brazilian subjects engaged in the slave trade, and whose ships were captured and disposed of under the provisions of the Act of 1845, should be part of the losses dealt with by the Commission. We contend that these captures have nothing whatever to do with the matters for which the Commission was appointed. We hold that no question can arise with regard to what was done under the Act of Parliament; that we were acting within our own powers, and are not accountable to Brazil in respect of this; and we, therefore, entirely repudiate the claim of Brazil to mix up this matter in the questions which were to be considered by the mixed Commission. An answer to that effect went not long ago to our Minister in Brazil. We have not yet received the answer of the Brazilian Government, but I am sure the hon. and learned Gentleman will see that while the question is pending it is not consistent with the public interest to give papers respecting it.
COLONEL DICKSONsaid, that the noble Viscount had not entirely answered the question put to him respecting Captain Brabazon, namely, whether the information received of that officer's death was derived from the personal knowledge of the informants, or rested merely on Chinese rumours? The noble Viscount was inclined to believe that there could be no possible hope. But the friends of Captain Brabazon complained that the belief expressed in his death rested entirely on circumstantial evidence, and that no pains had been taken to discover the real facts. The Earl of Elgin in his despatches said that the 1191 silence of the Chinese respecting Captain Brabazon led him to believe that that officer must have met with a violent death. That was the only evidence the Earl of Elgin seemed to have relied upon to satisfy himself of Captain Brabazon's fate; but surely, as that young officer had been sent on a most peculiar and dangerous mission—one which had been declined by another officer until he got the written order of the Commander-in-Chief—he deserved even more consideration than another. It was said that his body had been thrown into the canal. Then, why was the canal not dragged and some means taken to find out his real fate? Instructions, it appeared, had been sent out by the noble Lord the Foreign Secretary in February, and the noble Lord had evinced the utmost kindness and sympathy. The Russian Government also, when its Ambassador was sent out in March, directed him to make every inquiry, and to use every exertion to ascertain Captain Brabazon's fate, and that showed that in their opinion there was a probability of his being still alive. He agreed with those who thought there was just a hope that Captain Brabazon might have been spared and carried up the country, and retained for a purpose which had been already suggested, particularly as they had from Prince Kung himself an assurance that the Abbé de Luc was alive a fortnight after both those gentlemen were supposed to have been murdered. He implored the noble Lord to use every diplomatic engine, and all the means which the wealth and influence of England placed at his command, to solve the horrible mystery, and, if possible, to restore a noble son to his afflicted father and a gallant officer to his country.