RETURN MOVED FOR. (Hansard, 9 April 1861)

COLONEL DUNNE
said, he rose to move for certain Returns of arms and military stores made at the Government manufactories, or procured by contract, in each year from 1852–3 to 1860–1. He understood the Returns were to be opposed, and if the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for War had given any reason to convince him that they ought not to be granted, he would have either withdrawn his Motion, or so altered it that it could not have damaged the public service. He thought the fullest information should be given on these subjects before the Estimates were voted. If those Gentlemen who had gone to the First Minister of the Crown, asking him to practise greater economy, would support him (Colonel Dunne), they would show that they were in earnest. But that they never were on that subject. He contended that no injury could possibly arise from granting the Return. There could be no objection to it from apprehension of giving information to foreign Governments; it was very probable they were better acquainted with the slate of the military stores than our own authorities. But the Return was most essential for the purposes of examining and explaining the Estimates with respect to arms. He found that since the abolition of the Ordnance Department between four and five millions of money had been devoted to small arms. Now what had been done with all those small arms? The only operations in which any great number could have been destroyed was in the Crimea and India; and yet in the Crimea at first only the Fourth Division had been armed with the Enfield rifle, and was had in none but the regiments who came out from home, 339 which were completely armed with this weapon. After careful inquiry he could not make out any destruction there commensurate with the enormous sums granted. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baring) might say that it was imprudent to give this Return; but such Returns used to be given for the purpose of basing the Estimates upon them. Take for instance the clothing of the army, it was surely necessary to know what it cost before they voted money for it. Another reason for the granting of the Return was that in a comparison of two papers which had just been laid upon the table of the House on the subject there were great discrepancies. For instance, in one Return the cost of a certain department was set down at £51,840, while in the other Return the same thing was set down at £79,379. Now, if the Returns he was asking for were granted, an opportunity would be afforded of seeing which of these Returns was right. It was far from his wish to lessen either the amount voted for this object or the efficiency of the service; all he wanted was that the money should he properly laid out, and should not be applied to other purposes. He had been told it, and he believed that by careful scrutiny a million of money might be saved in these Estimates without injury to the efficiency of any one of the public establishments. If they did away with all useless establishments, useless staff and other things, they might at the same time increase the efficiency, while they reduced the expense of the military departments. There was now a deficiency in the revenue, and the country stood in need of economy. Within the last thirty years there had been twenty changes in the Estimates. Before the Commission which sat in 1849 the Estimates were said to be obscure, but they were infinitely more obscure now. He would consent to any modification in the Returns which the hon. Gentleman might think proper, but he thought the country was entitled to explanation, and he demanded it from the Government.

§ SIR HENRY STRACEY
seconded the Motion.

MR. T. G. BARING
said, he could assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman and the House that there was no desire on the part of the Government to conceal anything; on the contrary, it was their desire that every information in regard to the Army Estimates should be laid before the House. There was no objection on the part of the Government to furnish the information asked for as far as that was concerned, but there was a very simple reason why it would be inexpedient to furnish these Returns. The account asked for was, in point of fact, the whole store account of the War Department for the last nine years, including, of course, the period of the Crimean war; and this was not only to be printed and published for general information, but was to be re-arranged in a form which would give very considerable trouble to the department. Was it likely that such a mass of details could afford to the House information which they could make practically available? It was hardly possible to represent the enormous mass of items asked for, but the papers which they embraced would hardly pass through the door-way of the House. For the simple reason that the Returns would be of such a voluminous character, and would be attended with very little practical advantage, he did not feel justified in assenting to the Motion. With respect to the cost of the clothing for the army, a return had been but very recently moved for, which in a few days would be in the hands of every Member of the House. With regard to one portion of the returns moved for by the hon. and gallant Member—the account of profit and loss of the several manufacturing departments for the eighteen months preceding the 1st January, 1861—he would remark that there would be a great deal of difficulty in framing an account for that particular period, because the accounts of those departments were kept for the financial year. The Committee appointed by the House to inquire into the reorganization of the War Office had gone into the matter, 341 which was one of great importance, and Lord Herbert had devoted considerable attention to the subject, and before long accounts framed upon what he (Mr. Baring) trusted would be considered a good system for the manufacturing departments would be presented to Parliament at the end of each financial year. With regard to some portion of the separate Returns moved for by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, no doubt it would be found that in Returns which had been and would be furnished, they had been included.

COLONEL DUNNE
said, the hon. Gentleman had given no answer whatever to his Motion. It was not a mass of details which he required, but an intelligible Return. The officers of the departments were perfectly able to supply the information if they were called on to do so. They knew perfectly well what they were doing; if anybody was ignorant it was the Government. He denied that the Returns he had asked for were at all of the voluminous character the hon. Gentlemen chose to give them, nor could any one conversant with the subject imagine they were so. These accounts should always be kept in the War Department and be accessible when called for; and he contended it was not advisable for the Government to conceal them from the House. The War Department would do well to be cautious in this matter, because a Motion not to proceed with these Estimates until sufficient information had been laid before them was one which the House was very likely to assent to. Of course it was useless to contend against the refusal of the Government to grant the Return, in the then state of the House, and he would not, therefore, go to a division; but he hoped that on second thoughts the hon. Gentleman would give the information he asked for.

GENERAL PEEL
said, he was sure there could be no objection on the part of the War Department to give every information in their power, and if the hon. and gallant Officer would alter his Return, no doubt, the hon. Under Secretary would agree to it. He was glad to hear that it was the intention of the War Office to give annually regular statements with regard to the manufacturing establishments.