HC Deb 17 May 1860 vol 158 cc1421-3
MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH

said, he rose to ask the Secretary to the Treasury when it is intended to proceed with the Civil Service Estimates; how soon No. VII. of those Estimates will be laid upon the table of the House, and whether the same will contain an Estimate for the Expenditure of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests during the current year? The hon. Member reminded the House that four months had elapsed since the commencement of the Session, and expressed an opinion that, of late, forty or fifty items were included in No. 7, many of which might very well appear in Nos. 4 and 6.

MR. LAING

said, he should he very glad to be able to reply to the first question, but he was sorry to say that the period when the Civil Service Estimates would be taken must depend upon the course of public business, over which he had manifestly no control. It would be necessary before Whitsuntide to ask the House for a Vote on account of those Estimates, as was done last year, and they would be proceeded with on the earliest opportunity of which the state of public business would admit. No. 7 contained those Miscellaneous Votes which could not be ascertained until a late period of the Session, and that class was never presented until late, in order to obviate the necessity of Supplementary Votes. The papers would certainly be presented, and in the hands of hon. Members, so as to give time for consideration at least equal to that which had been the usual practice. With regard to the expenditure of the Woods and Forests, that involved a very grave constitutional question. In 1857 a Committee which inquired into the subject recommended that the salaries should be voted, but not the expense of collecting the revenue, which was settled by the Act by which the Civil List was given to the Sovereign in substitution of it. The Committee of 1857 also pointed out the constitutional difficulty of departing from that course, and it was not the intention of the Government to undertake a responsibility which two Committees admitted was not free from difficulty. The Woods and Forests Estimates would therefore be submitted in the usual form.

MR. DISRAELI

Sir, I have no wish to prolong this discussion, but I must say a few words as to the practice which the hon. Secretary to the Treasury has just adverted to—that of voting money on account. I quite agree that there are occasions on which it may be expedient to have recourse to that practice; but I hope it will not become chronic, and that the House will seriously consider before it consents to take this course. The Government may be able to state very fair reasons for it on the present occasion, but the proposition is one which the House of Commons ought to view with great suspicion. It is, in fact, a mode by which all real examination into the expenditure of the country is prevented, and, without referring more particularly to the present case, I wish generally to impress on the House that it is of great importance that this proceeding should be looked on as one of extraordinary character, and one which if persisted in will virtually dispossess this House of all practical control over the expenditure. I am totally unaware what are the circumstances which can justify the Government to make this demand on us. No doubt, the statement which they have to make may be perfectly satisfactory, but, if this demand is only made on us to enable them to go on with business in which the House and the country do not appear to take any great interest, whereas the I expenditure of the country must always be a matter of general interest, I shall view the proposal with feelings not of a character to make me too eager to saction it.