§ MR. W. EWARTsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what are the measures adopted for subjecting to a strict system of inspection while they are being built, Gunboats and other Vessels, built on contract by the Government? The subject, he said, was one of great interest to this country, as it was believed that those gunboats, from their light draught of water, were admirably fitted for the defence of our coast. He wished to know what sort of inspection had been exercised over the construction of those gunboats that were now said to be defective. He had occasion to see a vessel built for the Russian Government, and which was inspected by a Russian officer, and he found on inquiry that so vigilant was the inspection that not a screw could be driven into the vessel without the officer being present.
§ SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, he rose for the purpose of asking the Secretary to the Admiralty what is the real extent of injury by decay which has been discovered in Her Majesty's Mortar Vessels and Gunboats; whether it is true that improper workmanship and fastenings have also been discovered; and what steps the Board of Admiralty have taken, or intend to take, in consequence of the present slate of those vessels? But before he put those Questions he should express a hope that the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of 1093 Trade would give a satisfactory answer to the appeal which had been addressed to him by the hon. Member for Sunderland on the subject of the construction of harbours of refuge. He coincided in every word that had fallen from his hon. Friend with respect to the immense importance, for the protection of life and property, of establishing better harbours of refuge than those which we at present possessed along our coast; and he trusted that no considerations of economy would deter Her Majesty's Government from carrying out the recommendations of the Royal Commissioners in that matter. He should also say that he hoped his noble Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty would be able to offer to the House a satisfactory explanation as to the intention of the Admiralty to carry out the warrant relative to the medical officers of the navy. He had upon a former occasion mentioned that a statement had reached him to the effect that an assistant surgeon had been unable to obtain a cabin on board the Queen, although there were four cabins vacant, one of which had been given to the band master, and the rest appropriated to stores and other purposes comparatively unimportant. His noble Friend had told him that there was no truth in that statement; but he (Sir John Pakington) had still some reason to doubt whether his noble Friend himself might not have been misinformed upon that subject. He would next proceed to put to his noble Friend the Questions of which he had given notice with respect to the state of our gunboats and mortar vessels. For several weeks past, and almost every day, the public journals had been full of statements with regard to the decay of those vessels; and not only that, but very serious allegations had been repeatedly made with respect to the conduct of the contractors who had undertaken the building of that portion of our naval force. Considering the publicity that had been given to the matter, he hoped his noble Friend would consider that the best course for him to take in that matter would be to tell the truth, lie did not, of course, mean to imply any doubt of the veracity of his noble Friend, but he trusted that his noble Friend would candidly lay before the House the whole of the facts with regard to the state of those vessels, and that he would, at the same time, inform them whether there was any fair ground for casting these serious imputations on the contractors. His (Sir John Pakington's) attention was called to the 1094 state of those gunboats in the year 1858; and he, in consequence, felt it his duty to subject to an inspection the boats hauled up on the slips at Haslar. It was then found that a certain amount of the elm planking had decayed; but the decay did not appear to extend any further. The Admiralty gave orders to have the defects made good, and we had every reason to suppose that those vessels had been placed in a sound condition. But they were now told that instead of a few decayed elm planks the whole framework of those vessels was rotten; and within the last few days it had been stated in the newspapers that four of Her Majesty's mortar vessels had been recently examined and found so thoroughly rotten that the Admiralty had no choice but to break them up. That was not, however, the worst part of the case. They were informed, through the same channels, that the workmanship of those vessels was very defective; and he was sorry to have to add that there were charges of what must be called dishonest work—charges to the effect that the bolting of the vessels had been such that they could not go to sea with safety. These were most serious statements, and the time had come when they ought to know what were the real facts of the case. He had not, as far as he was at present informed, the slightest intention of imputing any blame to the Board of Admiralty of the period when the vessels were built; nor, indeed, had he any information which would justify him in imputing any serious blame to the contractors. Great allowance must he made for the haste with which those vessels were necessarily constructed. The contracts were taken up by houses of undoubted reputation, and there appeared to have been no suscipion at the time that they had not been faithfully carried out. But the statement which had recently been made deeply affected the public service, and had an important bearing upon the question how far they could resort to the contract system in the building of ships for the Royal Navy without endangering the public interests. Under these circumstances it was only fair to the contractors that the whole truth should be made known. He begged, therefore, to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty what is the real extent of injury by decay which has been discovered in Her Majesty's mortar vessels and gunboats; whether it is true that improper workmanship and fastenings have also been discovered; and what steps the Board of 1095 Admiralty have taken, or intend to take, in consequence of the present state of those vessel?
§ MR. BERNAL OSBORNEBefore the noble Lord answers the Questions, it will be only fair if he would state whether it is true that any officers connected with the Royal Dockyards from time to time visited, superintended, and gave their opinion as to the efficiency of these vessels.
§ LORD CLARENCE PAGETSir, I need scarcely say that I will follow the advice of my right hon. Friend opposite, and state the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, with regard to these gunboats, as far as it is known to us at the Admiralty. The first duty I have to discharge upon this occasion is to allay the anxiety which has been created by the apprehension that the whole of the gunboats and mortar-boats now in the Royal Navy are rotten and unfit for sea. Up to the present time we have evidence that a certain number have been more or less decayed, and measures either have been taken or are being taken for their repair. I will state the number of those which have been repaired; but I am not at present able to give the House a correct Estimate of the cost of the repairs, because the accounts have not yet been sent in. The noble Lord the Member for Cockermouth (Lord Naas) has, however, moved for a Return which will show the expense of building each of these contract gunboats, and the expense of repairing them, which will give a fair idea of the decay that has taken place in them. It must be remembered that when shipbuilders were invited to enter into contracts for the construction of those gunboats and mortar-vessels the country was very anxious that they should be ready for the campaign which was to open in the ensuing spring; and it is only fair to the contractors that I should state that some of them candidly and distinctly informed the Admiralty that they had no seasoned timber on hand, and that no seasoned timber could then be procured. I have myself seen a letter addressed to one of them, in which the Admiralty, after they had learnt from him that he had no seasoned timber, desired him to go on building with that which he had. So that, as regards the timber, I am bound to observe that, under the peculiar circumstances of the case, there is a great deal to be said on behalf of the contractors. But when we come to the question of short bolts, 1096 I must say that that is a fraud of a most abominable nature, inasmuch as it is manifest that a vessel fastened in that manner going to sea and meeting with bad weather might go to the bottom with all her crow. The House will easily understand, therefore, that the Admiralty make a great distinction between those two defects, of unseasoned timber and short bolts; and I have to state that we are now taking legal advice for the purpose of ascertaining whether it would be desirable that we should take further proceedings in respect to this case of defective bolting. I will now proceed to inform the House what is the number of boats that have been repaired, and what is their present state. Besides a great number of those boats which are now on foreign service we have in the yards twenty-three that were found in a partial state of decay, and that have since been completely repaired, and are now perfectly efficient; and we have now six boats in hand. There remain to be examined sixteen of those hauled up on Haslar slip; the condition of which has not been ascertained. There are forty in the steam reserve. We have no reason to suppose that those forty which are afloat show any serious signs of decay; but I cannot positively state to the House whether or not they will require repairs. I do not think that is a matter which need alarm the public any more than the condition of the sixteen which have not yet been examined on the Haslar slip, but which may be found defective. With regard, however, to those that are afloat, I am rather more hopeful that they will not require such extensive repairs as some persons seem to suppose. With regard to the mortar-vessels, undoubtedly those which have been examined have been found extremely defective. The right hon. Baronet is quite correct in stating that two of those at Chatham have been broken up, in consequence of their timber and planks having been found one mass of decay. But with regard to two others which I find it stated in the newspapers to-day are in a similar condition, we have not yet received any report at the Admiralty. I should state also that some of the boats built in the Government yards have been found defective and that eleven of them also have had to undergo considerable repairs. I now wish to say a few words with respect to the question of inspection. Undoubtedly it is advisable that there should be a very careful inspection by Admiralty offi- 1097 cers of all vessels that are being built by contract, and as a general rule the Admiralty always appoint a superior officer, who acts as an inspector in every yard where those vessels are being constructed. One officer, however, does the duty of inspector in a yard where several vessels are built, and hence it is that it is desirable on the score of economy that we should have as many vessels as possible constructed in one yard. We have at this moment twenty-four vessels being built by contract and we have seventeen inspectors attached to the yards in which the works are carried on; but as there are two or more vessels being constructed in some of the yards there is none of them without a Government inspector. This question of inspection, however, is one involved in some difficulty. Private shipbuilders are usually only invited at some period of public emergency to contract for the supply of vessels for the Royal Navy, and at such a time we are at full work in the Royal dockyards, where men are employed during extra hours and on task jobs; and it then becomes a matter of great importance that in the dockyards themselves the most vigilant superintendence should be exercised by the inspectors. The consequence is that it is more than usually difficult at such times to find inspectors for overlooking the work done in private establishments. We are at this moment, however, most careful that an efficient system of supervision should take place with regard to all vessels being built by contract; and we have a variety of checks against abuses in that matter. We have not only an inspector in each yard, but we send clown officers periodically to examine and to report how the work is being performed; and the vessels afterwards undergo a survey when they are delivered up to the Admiralty; and this they have to go through before the contractors receive the certificate that entitles them to payment. We thus take every possible precaution against bad workmanship and bad material. While I am upon this subject I will appeal to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chatham (Sir F. Smith) whether he does not think that the Admiralty have shown great anxiety to arrive at the truth in those cases in which we had any reason to suspect that fraud had been practised by contractors.
The only other Question I have to answer is that which has been put to me by the hon. Baronet the Member for the City 1098 of Dublin, with regard to the position of surgeons in the navy. I have to inform the hon. Baronet that surgeons are now about to receive a new uniform of a more ornamental character than their present dress. The reasons for the delay which has taken place in that matter are, that we have felt it necessary that all the non-executive officers in a ship should have a uniform distinct from that of the executive officers, and that we did not wish to decide what should be the uniform of the first of these classes until the House of Commons bad agreed to grant the sums necessary for improving their general condition, which has now been accomplished. With regard to cabins, I cannot hold out the least hope that the Admiralty will give the surgeons a better class. We are anxious that proper cabins should be provided for surgeons, and also for the assistant-surgeons, but we cannot place them in the same position in that case as captains. My right hon. Friend opposite has stated that, according to the information which he received, a cabin was refused to an assistant surgeon on board the Queen, while that accommodation was afforded to the bandmaster and other inferior officers. Captain Hillyard, however, who commands that vessel, has informed me that he gave every cabin he could for the use of the assistant-surgeons, and that at last one of them wished to turn him out of his own steward's berth, as it was called. He refused to accede to that demand, and that is the only foundation for the story to which my right hon. Friend has alluded.
§ SIR JOHN PAKINGTONAre we to understand that it is the intention of the Admiralty to prosecute contractors in all cases in which there are reasonable grounds for suspecting them of fraud?
§ LORD CLARENCE PAGETWe are taking legal opinions for the purpose of ascertaining how far we have the power of instituting such proceedings.
§ SIR CHARLES NAPIERsaid, it must be satisfactory to know that the contractors who built the gunboats had frankly told the Government they could not procure any but unseasoned timber. The question then arose whether the Government were to blame for accepting the unseasoned timber. For his own part, he acquitted them of all blame. Considering the emergency that had arisen, they were perfectly right in accepting unseasoned timber when they could not get seasoned timber, though it was no doubt a pity they 1099 had not exercised the foresight of getting the right sort of timber beforehand. But he should like to learn from the noble Lord who wore the contractors who employed short bolts, and who had thus shown themselves ready to expose the lives of every man on board their ships to the most imminent peril. He wished to know who it was that had resorted to that fraud in building the Caroline gunboat. The name of such a man ought to be made known to that House, and he was sure they would all feel that no punishment could be half severe enough for men who would so risk the lives of British officers and British seamen. He wanted to know heir names that very night, that the House might judge of their conduct. He should like to know also who were the inspectors; whether there were any, and who appointed them. Why had the Admiralty not sent and examined every one of the gunboats one by one? Why had not the noble Lord the Secretary of the Admiralty, who it was understood was to do wonders with the navy, ascertained the actual state of the sixteen boats at the Haslar slip? He said that he "hoped" things were not so bad as had been supposed. Why, good God Almighty! he ought to know whether it was so or not. We had plenty of men at Portsmouth and Plymouth, and if not, let us send down a junior Lord of the Admiralty to see that the inspectors do their duty. There ought, at all events, to be a regular system of inspection. But there was another point to which he wished to revert. The gunboats built by contractors were not the only boats which were complained of; the Government had built a certain number of boats under the direction of their own officers, and in their own yards. Had those boats been satisfactorily constructed or not? It was well known that they were as bad as had could be. The nation ought not to be trifled with any longer, and he hoped that the contractors, whoever they might be, and the persons under whose directions the inferior gunboats built in the Government yards were constructed, ought to be brought to book. The inquiry would be a very difficult one. Would they get those who built the boats to speak the truth, and say what sort of timber these boats were really built of? At all events, no one could doubt that there ought to be an inquiry, and that it ought to be a very searching one. The noble Lord says he will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 1100 but the truth:—but will others do it? If a Commission was appointed to investigate the matter, he hoped they would not be contented with the mere statement of witnesses before them, but that they would go down and personally inspect every one of the defective gunboats. We were spending millions of money annually on the navy, and it was really disgraceful to find that the work was so deficient as it had turned out to be. Why, he was told that the stern of the Princess Royal, the very vessel which his noble and gallant Friend (Lord C. Paget) himself commanded, had been recently taken to pieces, and had been found to have been originally constructed of very unsound timber. Every one of the line-of-battle ships which were now being converted from sailing vessels into screw steam-ships were being converted, as he was informed, with green and unseasoned timber. It was all very well for the Admiralty to say that they had no seasoned timber. His simple reply to that was the inquiry—Why had they not? They have had plenty of money for it. His hon. Friend on the opposite side (Mr. Bentinck) had pointed out to the House that there was not a sufficient quantity of well-seasoned timber for two years kept in the dockyards? Why was that? Surely it could not be said that they had not money enough voted by Parliament. If they were converting all our ships of war into screw steamers with unseasoned timber, as he was informed they were, no sooner should we have finished the conversion of them than we should have to begin again with the first and repair them. He could tell the House that as long as such carelessness was suffered in the mode of doing the work, it would be quite a delusion to suppose that our Naval Estimates would ever be reduced. He did not say that it was not necessary to convert the line-of-battle ships to steamers; on the contrary, it was absolutely necessary, for, in the present juncture of affairs, and when the whole system of naval warfare had undergone a change consequent upon the introduction of steam, it became more than ever necessary that we should use every available means which science afforded to strengthen our navy, and place it in such a condition that we should maintain our naval supremacy. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire, the other night, said, that the state of Europe was such as to make the boldest man quake and the wisest men tremble. He was neither the 1101 boldest or the wisest man, yet he both quaked and trembled, and therefore it was that he was most anxious to take every opportunity of warning the Government of the danger we incurred in neglecting the navy. He hoped the hon. Member would insist either on a Committee or a Commission.
ADMIRAL DUNCOMBEsaid, that some of the gunboats which were inspected at Haslar slip were quite rotten, and in an absolutely dangerous condition.
§ LORD CLARENCE PAGETWhat I said was, some of them required very small repairs.
ADMIRAL DUNCOMBEcould only say, that two years ago when he happened to be at Haslar, and examined the gunboats, he poked the end of his umbrella through the bottom of some of them, and he could not well understand how they could require very small repairs after that. The noble Lord would probably bear in mind that, not only a great many Members of Parliament, but a great many officers and naval authorities were entirely against the system of hauling up vessels on dry slips and exposing them to all the influences of the weather. He believed that the best thing in the world for ships was to keep them afloat, and he should be very glad to see a comparison instituted between those that wore kept afloat and those that were laid up in reserve. There was no doubt that a great deal of the decay was owing to the boats having been originally built of unsound timber; and he thought himself, that so far as the Royal Arsenals went, they should supply seasoned timber to the builders, and for that purpose keep a good supply themselves. It had been mentioned that two of the mortar boats at Chatham were so rotten that it was very doubtful indeed whether they ought to be repaired or not. He hoped that the Admiralty would not throw good money after bad, but that if the boats were found to be very defective they would be broken up at once.
§ MR. BENTINCKsaid, that his hon. and gallant Friend had made a statement that he could not possibly believe to be correct—that the Admiralty, from want of seasoned timber, had been compelled to convert line-of- battle ships with unseasoned timber. They really ought to hear whether there was any foundation for that statement or not. He could not himself believe that such had been the case; but the statement was one of snob importance, and was calculated to create so much alarm throughout 1102 the country, that they ought to have a full, fair, and satisfactory explanation upon the matter. A great deal had been said with respect to the condition of the gunboats at Haslar. It was stated, two years ago, that the rotten state of these vessels was owing to their being hauled up on slips and kept dry, instead of being kept afloat. Why there was no carpenter's boy commonly conversant with the subject, who could not have told them what the result would be. The simple fact was, that ships which were hauled up invariably became rotten. No less than seventy gunboats had been hauled up into a position in which they could not be got at, and the cost of the operation was £70,000. Everybody who knew anything about the matter, knew that they must rot; and he had no doubt whatever that when they came to be examined, the sixteen remaining gunboats would be found to be in the same state. No doubt a system of inspection was very good; but it required the closest and constant observation on the part of the inspectors, to detect frauds of the description which had been adverted to on the present occasion. Short bolts might be put in without the knowledge of the contractor himself; and it was very easy for a shipwright to cut the bolt in two, put in the two heads, and clinch them. It might be done in five minutes, when the inspector's back was turned; and therefore it would be necessary that the inspector should see every one put in. The rot in timber, after it bad begun, showed itself in a moment; but it was impossible to say that timber was in a perfectly sound state, and would not rot, without examining it in the heart of the wood, in which the rot commenced and extended outwards. He had seen a vessel which appeared perfectly sound, and when the wood was opened no unsoundness appeared for several weeks. As, however, the wood dried by exposure to the atmosphere, the rot in the heart of the wood became perceptible. It was impossible that any system could prevent the occurrence of rot to the frame of vessels; but he believed it was false economy not to have a sufficient number of inspectors to watch every large vessel during the whole time it was being built.