HC Deb 08 May 1860 vol 158 cc907-13
COLONEL SYKES

said, he rose to move that a humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for Copies of the Minutes in Council of the Governor of Madras, dated the 20th day of March, 1860, and of the Minutes of the other Members of the Madras Council, upon Mr. Wilson's Budget; together with any Correspondence of the Secretary of State for India in Council with the Governments of India and Madras upon the imposition of the Income Tax; and of Dissents (if any) of Members of the Council of India. There had recently appeared in an Indian newspaper certain Minutes of the Governor of Madras, the Commander-in-Chief, Mr. Maltby, and Mr. Morehead, members of the Council of Madras, expressing their opinions as to the practicability or non-practicability of imposing the new taxes devised by Mr. Wilson upon the people of India at the present moment. In that Minute, Sir Charles Trevelyan expressed his conviction that the present crisis in India was more pregnant with portentous results for good or evil than any which had occurred within the memory of the present generation, and that on the line now taken would depend the future of our empire in the East. Sir Charles then proceeded to say:— I have always been of opinion that the financial crisis might be satisfactorily met by the reduction of expenditure only, combined with some obvious administrative improvements, whereby both our civil and military establishments would be rendered more effective, and the existing taxes would be more fully collected. … If we determine upon reducing a large portion of our Native Army and improving the condition of the remainder, financial difficulties will be overcome; we shall have a feeling of security which we have not enjoyed for many years, and shall be free to work out those improvements in the different branches of Indian administration on which the prosperity of the country depends. The result of this policy may be as clearly foreseen as anything in human affairs can be; but it will be far otherwise if we use our strength to impose on the people of India a new system of taxation which is extremely distasteful to them, which is not justified by any necessity, and which is totally unsuited to the present state of society in the country. The argument used by myself and my colleagues, and by many of the ablest of the officers serving under us, against the tobacco and licensing taxes are equally applicable to the taxes now proposed. If we use the strength which our present advantages give us to force obnoxious taxes on the people it will place us in a position towards them totally incompatible with the simultaneous reduction of the Native Army. We cannot afford to have a discontented people and a discontented army upon our hands at the same time. The same Gentleman spoke of the income tax as utterly impracticable, and of the tobacco tax as being next to it most injurious, because it would bring back the evils of a system of native taxation from which the Government had only recently assured the people they were finally relieved. He also said— It is a novel experiment, the success of which must be uncertain, and in the event of failure there is the danger of its raising a flame of discontent throughout the whole empire, and uniting the entire people in a feeling of opposition to us. That was a portentous prognostication, from the fulfilment of which he hoped Heaven would defend us. Mr. Maltby said— I hesitate not to give my strong opinion as an individual member of the Government that it would he far safer to dispense with three European regiments, at least two of our Native Cavalry Corps, and a corresponding portion of Native Infantry, than to attempt to introduce the proposed taxes. Mr. Morehead, whose experience gives great weight to his opinions, said— A sullen feeling of dissatisfaction already exists wherever Mr. Wilson's scheme of taxation has been understood by the people, and this feeling will, if the proposed taxation is carried out, undoubtedly become one of general and serious discontent. I agree with Mr. Maltby. I look upon an income tax for the present year as hopeless, and as a general measure it can only end in failure. Such were the opinions of high authorities upon the proposed scheme. He said nothing as to the mode in which they had got into print. They had been published in the papers, and were known by this time throughout all India, and he believed that it would be found impossible, after that disclosure, to carry out Mr. Wilson's Budget. Sir C. Trevelyan set out with the axiom which every statesman adopted unhesitatingly, that before you attempt to tax a people you must see if you cannot reduce your expenditure, and Sir Charles thought he had proved that reduction was quite practicable.

MR. A. STEUART moved that the House be counted.

Notice taken that Forty Members were not present; House counted; and Forty Members being present,

COLONEL SYKES

proceeded to say that if 50,000 European troops could break the neck of the mutiny, reduce Delhi, take Lucknow, and hold their own until re-enforcements arrived from Europe, that there was not now a Native Prince in India who could withstand a Brigade—nor a fortress to sit down before—and that the people had been to a considerable extent disarmed, there was no necessity to keep a larger force in India now than in 1857. In April 1857, however, the revenue of India amounted to £33,000,000, which was fully sufficient to cover all charges in India and England at that time, and allowed £2,000,000 to be expended on public works and improvements. The state of things which existed in April, 1857, could surely be restored, if the House and the Government only resolved to return to the status of that period. These facts were not to be gainsaid, as they were derived from papers upon the table of the House; and he contended that in these circumstances they would be running a tremendous risk if, in opposition to such opinions as those which had been expressed by Sir Charles Trevelyan and Mr. Maltby, they attempted to impose new taxes when they could do without them. His right hon. Friend (Sir C. Wood) had a vast responsibility resting upon him. He must either maintain a force sufficient to collect those taxes in India, or he must abandon them, and reduce the expenditure of that country within the £37,000,000 which the Indian revenue was now producing. He hoped that before these taxes were insisted upon his right hon. Friend would obtain the opinion of this House upon the subject; for, fortified in that way, he might be able to carry the whole weight of the country with him. In the meantime, as the papers for which he now moved had been printed and circulated in India, he did not see how the Government could well refuse to produce them for the information of this House.

Motion made, and Question proposed,— That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will he graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, Copies of the Minutes in Council of the Governor of Madras, dated the 20th day of March, 1860, and of the Minutes of other Members of the Madras Council, upon Mr. Wilson's Budget; together with any Correspondence of the Secretary of State for India in Council with the Governments of India and Madras upon the imposition of the Income Tax. And of Dissents (if any) of Members of the Council of India.

MR. VANSITTART

said, that as he had placed upon the paper a notice of a Motion for Friday next very similar in terms to that just made by his hon. and gallant Friend, he begged to be allowed to detain the House for a few moments. On Friday last he had ventured to condemn the financial scheme which had been so recently introduced to the Legislative Council at Calcutta by Mr. Wilson, and he was not a little surprised to find that opinion so soon receive a strong confirmation from very important and influential authorities. On Saturday, the following day, the Indian mail arrived, bringing news that the financial Budget was exciting the greatest alarm in India, in the same proportion as the financial Budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was beginning to excite distrust and apprehension amongst commercial and monetary circles at home. We less authorities than Sir Charles Trevelyan, the Governor of Madras, and Mr. Maltby, who had been for thirty years in the Civil Service of that Presidency, and who had lately been made a Member of the Council, Mr. Morehead, and Sir Patrick Grant, his colleagues in Council, had denounced this scheme in the strongest terms. Without, however, going into the merits or demerits of the scheme at that moment—though he himself held a very strong opinion on it, and, if no other Member undertook the task, should feel it his duty to bring the question under the consideration of the House—the request of his hon. and gallant Friend ought to be agreed to. The papers had been published in all the Indian journals, and on so grave and important a subject Parliament and the people of this country ought to be placed on the same footing as the Indian community. He hoped, therefore, the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for India would not resist the production of these papers, and if he did, he (Mr. Vansittart) would gladly support his hon. and gallant Friend in taking the opinion of the House on the subject.

MR. BUCHANAN

said, that great exception was taken in this country to Mr. Wilson's policy of laying additional taxes on British manufactures introduced into India. If it were true, as was stated last year, on high authority, that India was chiefly valuable to us in consequence of the commercial advantages which we derived from that country, the policy of taxing British imports was very questionable. It had always been maintained that the raw materials of manufactures should be exempted from taxation or as lightly taxed as the finances of a country would allow; but in this new scheme a double duty had been laid on the importation of the half-manufactured article—cotton twist. The manufacturers of that article in this country had to sustain a competition in India, where there were now a considerable number of factories having the advantages of cheap labour, cotton grown on the spot, and none of the drawbacks of the cost of transporting the material first to England and then to India; and this was a case, therefore, in which special consideration ought to have been paid to them. He hoped that this policy would receive full discussion in the House.

SIR CHARLES WOOD

The House will see, from the observations of my hon. Friend behind me (Mr. Buchanan), that my right hon. Friend, Mr. Wilson, is not at all likely to be more successful than Chancellors of the Exchequer in this country in the very difficult task of imposing taxes which will please all parties. My hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Sykes) finds fault with one part of the Budget, because it will not suit the people of India; and my hon. Friend, the Member for Glasgow, finds fault with another portion, because it interferes with the interests of the manufacturers at home. But the question for the House to bear in mind, is the position of the Indian finances. It was my duty last year to state their position; they have received the fullest consideration of Indian Statesmen; and the Supreme Government in India, after the fullest deliberation, and after having taken the opinions of the best authorities, have come reluctantly to the unanimous conclusion that the course which they have taken, coupled with a large reduction of expenditure, is the only one which offers a fair prospect of equalizing expenditure and income. That this is a desirable, nay, an indispensable object to attain, no one in this House, I think, will be prepared to deny. Having refused last year, and rightly refused, I believed, to give an Imperial guarantee for the Indian loan, I must express an earnest hope that the House will leave the responsibility for the arrangement of the Indian finances to the Government in that country, who, after all, must be better able to judge in what manner additional revenue can most easily and justly be obtained. I quite agree with my hon. and gallant Friend, that large reductions ought to be made in Indian expenditure. Ever since I have been in office I have impressed that on the Indian Government; and I am happy to say that last week we received news from India of reductions to a larger extent than we anticipated. The House may be assured that I do look to a large reduction of expenditure, rather than to a large increase of taxation, for equalizing expenditure and income; but the Indian Government have come to the conclusion, and I must say, that I cannot dissent from that view, that both are necessary for that object. I shall not go into a discussion of the Indian Budget, further than to say with regard to the production of the papers, that I hope my gallant Friend will not press for them at the present moment. They only arrived here last Saturday; other questions besides the mere question of the Budget are involved in them; and it is only right that the Indian Council should have the opportunity of giving them a full consideration. I feel the necessity of producing them before long, as strongly as my hon. and gallant Friend; and in a week or ten days I may have no objection to laying them on the table; coupled, however, with other papers, without which it would be impossible to come to an adequate conclusion on the subject.

COLONEL SYKES

, in reply said, he had no objection to leaving the chief responsibility to Indian authorities; but he wished to point out that these authorities were not agreed. The Madras Government objected to the scheme in the strongest manner.

MR. KINNAIRD

said, he presumed that after the statement of the hon. Member (Mr. Vansittart) the financial scheme of Mr. Wilson would be brought under discussion on some future occasion. He would suggest, therefore, that instead of these desultory discussions, the right hon. Baronet, the Secretary for India, should fix a day when, all the papers on the subject being before the House, the whole question of Indian finance should be gone into. In this way the right hon. Gentleman would save both his own time and that of the House.

SIR CHARLES WOOD

said, that it would, of course, be his duty, sooner or later, to bring the finances of India under the notice of the House. The Indian accounts had been received, and were being prepared for printing. As soon as they were printed they would be laid on the table of the House; but, until they were produced, it would be impossible to fix any time at which to enter upon the question; nor in the present state of public business, was it possible for him to do so, if even the papers were now ready.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.