HC Deb 04 May 1860 vol 158 cc704-6
LORD WILLIAM GRAHAM

said, that it appeared from a recent report on the polluted atmosphere of our public galleries and museums that the air of the National Gallery was more deleterious, noxious, and pestiferous than that of a common privy. And perhaps hon. Members would be surprised though not delighted to hear that the next public building in the order of atmospheric impurity was the House of Commons. There was no chance this year, and very little next year, that the money would be voted by Parliament for building a new National Gallery. He would, therefore beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether any steps have been taken, or are about to be taken, to improve the ventilations of the National Gallery, and to remove a vitiated atmosphere, which must be very injurious to the fine pictures in the national collection?

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, that before he gave any answer to the two last Questions which had been put to him, he would first advert to the Question which had been asked some two hours before by the hon. Member (Mr. Hennessy) on the subject of a gentleman connected with the Customs department. He begged to thank the hon. Gentleman for his courtesy in intimating to him privately his intention to put this question. In the question was involved three separate inquiries with respect to Mr. Ogilvie, who had been selected, together with another gentleman attached to the Board of Trade, to assist Mr. Cobden in the application of the principles laid down in the commercial treaty to the principles of the French tariff. The hon. Gentleman asked first, whether Mr. Ogilvie was the officer of that name who a few years ago was engaged under the direction of the present Chairman of the Board of Customs in getting up certain prosecutions, on the alleged ground of fraud, upon the dock companies of the port of London. In answer to that he had to say that those prosecutions were not accurately described, because, although they were prosecutions carried on by the Board of Customs, yet, as the hon. Member no doubt was aware, for all such proceedings the Executive Government, the advisers of the Crown, and particularly the Minister of Finance of the day, were properly responsible. As he understood, it was not Mr. Ogilvie's duty nor was he permitted by his superiors to take any share in the preparation of materials connected with those prosecutions.

The second Question, of course, referred to that portion of the British tariff which contained lists of duties of manufactured goods a large portion of which were now levied by specific rates. Many of these duties were introduced into the British tariff not many years ago, in 1845 or 1853; and Mr. Ogilvie, then an officer of the Board of Customs, on account of his great activity, intelligence, and experience in business, and also the confidence which his superiors reposed in him, was largely employed in the conversion of certain ad valorem duties into specific rates, and his efforts were as satisfactory as the nature of the case would permits and they wore so deemed by the commercial community at large. Thirdly, the hon. Gentleman asked whether there was any objection to lay upon the table any reports of statements made on former occasions by Mr. Ogilvie to the Board of Customs, or to any person connected with the Government, in opposition to the abolition or reduction of the wine duties. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had to state that there was no paper in existence which answered to the description of a report made by Mr. Ogilvie to the Board of Customs or Government. Upon first making inquiry on this point the memory of the parties connected with the Board of Customs did not serve them in the matter; but after reflection they recollected a memorandum from Mr. Ogilvie relating to (be vine disease, and to which, possibly, the question might refer. With reference, however, to memoranda of that description, passing between one member of a department and another, it would be quite contrary to usage, would be attended with great inconvenience, and might prevent confidential communications in future, if a practice were adopted of producing them for the information of the House. Of course he drew a broad distinction between such memoranda and those reports which were occasionally prepared by direction of superior officers, which constituted formal documents, and were, in many cases, fit to be produced for the information of Parliament.

With regard to the question put to him by the noble Lord, the Member for Wiltshire (Lord H. Thynne), he had only to say that a report to the effect the noble Lord had described (and he had no doubt there was such a report) was highly injurious and in-convenient with reference to trade. There was no foundation for any report of the kind. In point of fact, Her Majesty's Government could have no adequate experience of the probable working of the new system of wine duties. That experience could not even begin until the House should have passed some legislative measure for altering the present system with regard to the sale of wine, and the intention that bad been apparently imputed to Her Majesty's Government did not exist.

With regard to the question of the noble Lord (Lord W. Graham), as to the National Gallery, it had not been brought under his notice that the state of the atmosphere was so very unsatisfactory as would appear from the nature of the comparison to which the noble Lord had found it necessary to resort. He bad made inquiry of the authorities, and the answer he had obtained was that the National Gallery was at present provided with no means of ventilation except by opening the windows. If the present building were to be considered as of a permanent character it would be desirable that some other method of ventilation should be adopted. Experiments in ventilation, however, as the House well knew, were very costly, and in order to introduce them it would be necessary to make considerable alterations, which ought not to be lightly undertaken. If, however, alterations should take place which would permit of improved ventilating arrangements being made, a better ventilation ought to be secured. Plans were under the consideration of the Government, of the adoption of which he could, however, give no pledge, which would render it practicable greatly to improve the ventilation of the National Gallery.