HC Deb 01 May 1860 vol 158 cc457-85
SIR CHARLES NAPIER

, in rising to move for an Address upon this subject, said that in 1852 the Commission appointed to inquire into the manning of the navy recommended the adoption of the continuous-service system, which was partially carried out. Another recommendation was that a ship similar to the Britannia and four frigates should be maintained for the purpose of exercising the boys of the fleet. He had not heard, however, that that recommendation had been complied with. The Commission of 1852 recommended that 10,000 men should be stationed at the different ports as a Reserve, and the Commission of 1856 had made a similar recommendation with regard to a force of 4,000 men, in addition to the crews on board the ships forming the Channel fleet, and if that recommendation had been carried out he could have understood the declaration of the Admiralty that they had as many men as they wanted. But that plan had not been adopted, although the bounty had been reduced. Then, again, the country was paying for upwards of 8,000 Coastguards men, but of these only 6,362 were sailors, including officers. The district ships' companies were not men who could be taken to complete the manning of a fleet, or to man a new vessel, and the 1,400 Revenue men were nothing more nor less than civilians. The whole Reserve, therefore, which, in the event of any emergency, they had to fall back upon was 6,362 Coastguard men, instead of a reserve of 70,000 men, as contemplated by the Manning Commission. It was absurd to tell the House of Commons that they had a Reserve to fall back upon, when all in the world knew the contrary. He was glad to find that men were entering the Naval Reserve in larger numbers than formerly, as he was informed that there were 400 at Sunderland all good sailors. It was satisfactory also to find that the able seamen in the port of London were joining, and that a vessel of war had been stationed in one of the docks for the instruction of those men. Still, 1,000 men were but a very small proportion of the 30,000 who were wanted, and every means should be taken to supply the deficiency. He could not see why the men who had served ten years in the navy should not be induced to join the Coastguard, and their time of service to count—say three years as two—towards the long-service pension. He found that some of the recommendations of the Committee of 1852 bad been acted upon. A larger quantity of provision was allowed to the men, but this cause of satisfaction was counterbalanced by the allowance for saving being reduced or discontinued, and he believed the men would prefer going back to the old system. Then, as to the payment of wages, he could not see why there should not be weekly payments as long as the ship was in port. He thought much of the leave-breaking and discontent that prevailed would be prevented if the men were allowed to draw any portion of their wages they liked, and then to have leave on shore. In the East India Company's service the gallant Admiral opposite (Sir J. Elphinstone) had found that making the paymaster of the ship a sort of banker to the men, and allowing them to draw what they wanted, acted very satisfactorily to all parties. Some improvements, he admitted, had taken place in dispensing the allotment money to seamen's wives; but be still had to complain that those allotments were not made so soon as they ought to be. He held that from the moment a man entered on board a ship his wife ought to be entitled to the allotment, and that it ought to be paid to her once a week. He contended also that on returning home from a cruise, the moment the anchor dropped, a certain number of the men—say one of the watches—ought to be allowed to go on shore to see their families and friends, and to take with them, not the whole of the money due to them, for that led to extravagance, but a portion of it. The men did not like to be kept on board with their money in their pockets. They were often called reckless, but it was the Government system that made them so. When the army was paid once a month there was much more debauchery among the troops than there was now that they received their pay daily. In former days he had seen seamen receive thirty or forty or even fifty pounds the day before, or on the very day they sailed. He had even known them to throw their money overboard, because they did not know what to do with it. During the two years he commanded the Channel fleet there had been no discontent, because whenever he came to port he did not let his men go on leave by driblets of 20 or 30 per cent, but he let a whole watch go at once, and for forty-eight hours. No wonder when one captain let a whole watch out on leave, and another only gave a similar privilege to 30 per cent of his crew, that there was discontent. He had been accused of causing dissatisfaction and discontent in the fleet. Not only, however, did he deny the truth of that imputation, but contended that hardly a single improvement had taken place in the navy for many years past that bad not originated with himself, though the Admiralty had in some cases allowed a quarter of a century to elapse in carrying them out. His great aim had been to improve the condition of the seamen. He did not doubt that the Admiralty were desirous of improving their condition also, but they were so excessively slow in all their motions that he had long since lost all patience with them; however, the noble Lord had done what no Secretary of the Admiralty, whether in the service or a civilian, had ever done before him—he had said that corporal punishment should be abolished. He (Sir C. Napier) had always contended that it was impossible at once to put an end to it; and he had stated as much to his constituents, though they hooted him for it. The contrary declaration of the noble Lord had tended to produce more discontent than anything which he (Sir C. Napier) had done. What he had always laboured to effect was to improve the condition of the seamen; satisfied as he was that that was the true policy. The noble Lord's speech had been hawked and placarded about the seaports, but it had only been laughed at. Seamen were told that they were noble, fine, jolly fellows, only they were so suspicious, and above all, of the Admiralty. If that was so, what was the use of the noble Lord the Secretary to the Admiralty stating to the House not long ago that the number of seamen was complete, and that the Admiralty could not avail themselves of the services of any more. It was well known that neither the Channel fleet, the Coastguard, nor the 4,000 men required for service in the home-ports were complete. What, therefore, was the use of the noble Lord "bamboozling" the House and the seamen in that way? It would have been much better for him to say what number of men was wanted, for to state that the navy was abundantly supplied with men, at a time when complaints were made of the hesitation of seamen to enter the service, was the very way to produce the cause of complaint itself. He believed the position of petty officers in the navy was much improved, but he thought the Admiralty had behaved very shabbily in the case of pensions to the widows of warrant officers. They had restored the pensions which at one time they took away, but the manner in which they had been restored was wholly unworthy of the Admiralty. If a warrant officer died on the 25th of December, 1859, the pension to his widow was refused; but, if he died on the 1st of January, 1860, the widow got the pension—a distinction which was shabby in the extreme. With regard to the Naval Coast Volunteers, upon whom the Report said no reliance could be placed, there was a means of making them useful, which he would recommend to the attention of the noble Lord. He would take out of the block-ships at the various ports their masts and spars, making them what they really were—block-ships, and would put into them the Coast Volunteers. Those ships were of no use, lying as they now were; but they might be made serviceable should any disaster arise, by putting the Coastguard on board of them. It would be found a useful step, too, to call each block-ship by the name of the port to which it was attached, as men had a certain pride in belonging to a ship which bore the name of their own port. The Commission recom- mended a re-adjustment of the Merchant Seamen's Fund; but no stop whatever had been taken towards that object. This was a very important matter, and if properly carried out, would be of great use to the men. Another matter to which he wished to refer was, that of admission to Greenwich Hospital. That might be made a strong inducement to enter the navy, but before seamen could be brought to care about Greenwich Hospital, that establishment must be reformed. A Commission had been appointed to consider the subject; but the Report of that Commission had not yet been laid on the table. He did not know why, unless it was that the Admiralty was ashamed of the exposures that would be made; but it was certainly high time that the House should have it, and that the hospital should undergo a thorough reform. Besides the Coastguard service, the opening of which would constitute a powerful inducement to seamen to serve in the navy, there were many places in the Custom House to which civilians and landsmen were at present appointed, and which might be conferred upon the sailor. There were also the dockyard and victualling lighters, employment in which might be restricted to seamen after they had left the navy. Then, as to the propriety of not allowing men to go on shore after returning from a three or four years' cruise, he thought it was very hard upon them; especially as it was notorious that the officers were permitted to land to see their friends. This might be easily remedied by at once discharging the men into a ship that was ready to receive them upon their coming home, and placing the ship, from which they had been discharged with all her stores on board, into the hands of the dockyard authorities. On the subject of stores, he would tell the House what he himself witnessed on Saturday last. He was walking past a union-house in the neighbourhood of Portsmouth, when he saw a lot of what he supposed to be junk brought to the union door. Curious to see what sort of junk it was, he laid his hand upon a bundle of it, and it turned out to be a piece of six or seven-inch rope, that appeared to belong to the shears of a three-decker, and was bran new. Searching further he found another piece of rope that was also without a rub upon it, and that, too, was quite new. Let the House fancy that system going on at every union-house in the vicinity of the dockyards at Portsmouth, Plymouth, and other ports, and imagine what the cost must be. Well, be asked the man who was in charge to give him a piece of the rope, which he did; and he (Sir Charles Napier) sent it to Admiral Grey, at Portsmouth, in order that some inquiry might be made as to bow the rope had been thus cut up. And he thought that the best thing the Admiralty could do would be to have the whole of the rope sent back to Portsmouth, institute a survey, and whoever the offender might be dismiss him instanter. His hon. Friend (Sir J. Elphinstone) had referred, on a former occasion, to the question of men breaking their leave, and the offence was one which ought to be punished; for it was totally inconsistent with the maintenance of order and discipline in the service. Some captains, if the men of the starboard watch broke their leave, kept the port-watch in the ship until the others returned, which was punishing the innocent for the guilty. Usually stopping his leave was the only punishment, if a man broke his leave; and the result was that when the man did get leave he broke it again. He contended that men ought to be more severely punished for this offence. He would not have them flogged, but would give them a week's imprisonment, with hard labour. He would not send these men to Exeter or Winchester gaol, for they came out worse than they went in. There ought to be naval prisons in the seaport towns. The crews in port would know that these men were in prison for breaking leave, and so forth; and it would do more than anything to prevent a repetition of the offence. It was said that the Admiralty had made a new code of laws for the navy, and he hoped it would soon be published. For desertion, and other serious offences, he would send men to the penal settlements; and if it were publicly known that this punishment would follow, there would he very little desertion. He implored the Admiralty to take this into consideration. He would give the sailors the same right to a court-martial that was given to the army. Let the sailor be tried by his own officers. He used to establish a certain sort of court-martial. He told the ship's company they might be present if they liked, and he took evidence; but he was obliged to act as judge, jury, and executioner. Unless, however, the Admiralty paid their men better, they would never make the service popular. He used to be opposed to giving better pay to the men, and was for giving it instead to the petty officers. But it was now found that men would not serve in the navy, if they could get employment elsewhere. The Admiralty, like every other employer of labour, must pay the market price. He would encourage every A. B. to look forward to becoming a petty officer; and he Would approach the pay of the petty officer nearer to that of the warrant officer. If the Admiralty raised the petty officer's position, the men would respect him more. If the petty officer committed a crime, let him be tried by court-martial; and if he were dismissed the service and lost his pension, he would be very severely punished. The petty officers, however, should not be tried by the officers of the ship's company. They ought to be tried by the captains and officers of the fleet, with all the solemnity that could be given to the inquiry. The difficulty in procuring men, was shown in the case of the Ganges, Renown, Diadem, and Mersey. The Ganges was 10 weeks in getting 428 men. The Renown obtained 650 men in 17 weeks. The Diadem and Mersey were about as long in raising the same proportion. All that time the pay of the officers was going on; and he should like to know how much was thus lost in officers' pay, while the men were coming in by driblets. When, as frequently happened, a ship abroad was kept waiting to be relieved, the Admiralty were paying half the men in one ship and the whole of the men in the other during the interval. The House might like to know the opinion of the sailors. He had received many letters from them, and they agreed that there were many seamen unemployed who might be got to serve Her Majesty. The watermen and lightermen of the Thames, in consideration of certain privileges which they enjoyed, were obliged when called upon to serve in the navy, but the Admiralty now-a-days rarely, if ever, enforced the claims they had upon them. In his opinion, however, the services of these men might be turned to good account. He recommended the Admiralty to establish a large and efficient vessel somewhere in the river, on board of which the watermen could be drilled. The existence of their privileges depended upon their responding to any call that was made upon them, and the Admiralty would have no difficulty in collecting as many as would form a complete ship's company. There were block-ships at Liverpool and Harwich, but none at all in the Thames, where a ship's crow might be had for nothing. It was his earnest desire to see the navy put in an efficient condition, and he saw no reason, if the proper steps were taken, why it should not become so popular that, instead of the Admiralty having to beg men to join, they would beg to be employed. It ought not to be said that this great maritime country found a difficulty in obtaining choice seamen for her fleet, which was not experienced by the great steam companies and private traders. The noble Lord the Secretary to the Admiralty indeed had stated that choice seamen had been procured for the navy; but from the information he (Admiral Napier) had received he was disposed to believe, though they might be choice seamen some years hence they could not be called so now. He wished particulary to press upon the Admiralty the necessity of establishing better discipline in the navy. A sailor must be ruled with a hand of iron in a glove of velvet; he should be treated with consideration and indulgence when well-behaved, but any breach of discipline should be severely punished.

Motion made and Question proposed,— That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, expressing the regret of this House that, instead of a Reserve of 70,000 men contemplated by the Manning Commission, there only exists 6,362 Coast Guard Men, including Officers, 1,900 District Ships' Companies, 1,400 Revenue Men and 600 Cruisers' Men, and 5,000 or 6,000 Coast Volunteers not to be depended upon; and, as a Vote of this House has unanimously decided that the Report of the Manning Commission ought to be carried out, this House humbly prays Her Majesty will give directions that the Coast Guard should be completed to 12,000 seamen, as recommended by the Commission, ready to be placed in efficient ships at the several Ports, instead of the present block-ships, thus constituting a Reserve of ten sail of the line, ready for any emergency; that the number of Naval Volunteers, now under 1,000 should be completed as soon as possible, and the other recommendations of the Commission complied with; and humbly to represent to Her Majesty that the bounty for able seamen ought not to have been lowered till the number wanted was complete.

SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONE

said, he rose to second the Motion, as well as to express a hope that the important suggestions of his hon. and gallant Friend would receive due attention from the Admiralty. He seconded the Motion principally in the hope that the noble Lord the Secretary to the Admiralty would be able to give some good account of the Naval Volunteer force. He was very happy indeed to have heard since he came into the House that the reports which the noble Lord would be able to make were of a very fa- vourable nature. He always felt that there would be considerable difficulty in starting that force, but that when it was once put in motion the seafaring population of this country would cheerfully enter it; and that, inasmuch as it combined many advantages, it would go on constantly increasing in numbers and efficiency. The arrangements with respect to the reserve force had been completed only a short time, and it was not to be expected that the number of men enrolled before the completion of the arrangements would be very considerable. He thought the machinery for increasing the reserve force might be modified with great advantage. It was not politic to burden an overworked department like the Board of Trade with the formation and management of a Reserve force of 60,000 men, which must be greatly augmented in time of war. He thought that the many officers of high standing who were unemployed ought to be constituted a department for superintending that force. By means of a department of that sort the naval force and the mercantile service might be brought more into unison than they were at present. He would also press most strongly upon the Secretary of the Admiralty the propriety of devoting his most strenuous exertions to carrying into effect the recommendations of the manning Commission with respect to the establishment of school ships, for it was on school ships that the whole matter depended. If we could only obtain 15,000 or 20,000 men for the Naval Reserve, the school ships would soon supply enough of men to make that body as numerous as the Manning Commission recommended it to be. The boys trained in these ships would rapidly become men, and they would be men of education and good character. The school ships would form a connecting link with the merchant service, and that was very much wanted. He would also urge upon the notice of the Secretary to the Admiralty the extreme injustice of carrying out only partially the recommendations of the Naval Commission in regard to warrant officers. Many cases of hardship had arisen from the restrictions which accompanied the restoration of pensions to the widows of warrant officers, and he trusted that they would be removed. A petition from no less than forty widows of warrant officers for compensation had lately been laid on the table of the House, but the informal manner in which it was drawn prevented its reception. He had on that occasion also pre- sented a petition from a warrant officer's widow, which was to the effect that the petitioner, a person of very high character, was the widow of the gunner of the Sanspareil, Mr. John Alexander White, who died of cholera at the siege of Canton, and that, in consequence of her husband having died before the date of the warrant for restoring pensions to warrant officers widows, she was declared to be not entitled to a pension; and as she had no other means of support, she was now, notwithstanding the respectable position in life she occupied before her marriage, earning a livelihood for herself and infant daughter, by making shirts at 4s. a dozen. With regard to the question of breaking leave, it was impossible for him to coincide in the opinion that harsh measures should be taken against the men who broke their leave. When a ship's company could go on shore, and the officer could bring his liberty men back again on board ship, then they would be in a position to punish the men severely. But as long as a system was tolerated which was a disgrace to the country, of seamen being seized in seaport towns by the lowest and vilest of the community, drugged, robbed, and turned out stupefied and half-naked, without any organized police to keep this system in check or assist officers in recovering their men, they were not in a position to punish the men for breaking leave very severely.

LORD CLARENCE PAGET

said, he could not but think that the practice, in which the hon. and gallant Member indulged almost weekly, of bringing before the House a recapitulation of details as to the discipline and management of the fleet in one stereotyped speech, was not conducive to the interest of the service for which the gallant Member professed great anxiety. He would not enter into all those details, but would endeavour to inform the House in a short statement taken from official sources, of the actual position of the Reserve and the fleet. With regard to the Motion, he believed it was founded on many misconceptions, and he should, therefore, ask the House not to agree to it. The first part expressed "the regret of this House that, instead of a Reserve of 70,000 men contemplated by the Manning Commission, there only exist 6,362 Coastguard men, including officers, 1,900 district ships' companies, 1,400 revenue men and 600 cruisers' men, and 5,000 or 6,000 Coast Volunteers, not to be depended upon." He thought that paragraph was offensive to the seamen of the country [Sir C. NAPIER: it is in the Report of the Commission.] He maintained there was no reason to suppose that the Coast Volunteers were to be depended on for the service for which they were intended. The Coast Volunteers were enrolled for service on the coasts, and not for foreign service, which was a very different thing. He maintained that they were to be depended upon, and that the contrary assertion was offensive to the seamen and to the public. The Commission on Manning the Navy, after going into various details, recommended various improvements in the position of the men with regard to pensions, pay, provisions, and clothing, many of which had already been effected. The Commissioners then recapitulated their propositions for the service of the country, and to those points he wished to limit his observations. They proposed that there should be reliefs in the home ports to the number of 4,000 men. Every gentleman connected with the Admiralty was equally as desirous as the Commissioners to see that carried out, and he believed that this year, supposing they got all the men for whom Parliament had voted the money, they would not be far from the desired end as there would be a considerable number of reliefs in the home ports. As to the Coastguard, to which the hon. and gallant Member next referred, he stated the other day their number, and he would repeat it on that occasion as he thought it desirable that the amount of that invaluable force should be generally known. In the Coastguard there were 6,862 sailors, officers, and boys. It might be said that the number did not represent the true strength, because the officers were included; but men without officers were a mere rabble, and in a reserve force there must be a number of officers corresponding with the number of men. There were besides 476 Marines who were attached to the Coastguard. There were besides 1,381 civilians, about whom he would only say he believed that they would, if necessary, do good service, The gallant Admiral said it was desirable that the Coastguard should be increased to 12,000 men. He agreed with the gallant Admiral, and knowing the extreme value of that body, the Admiralty were daily increasing the numbers. It was not the work of this particular Board of Admiralty; but for years it had been a rule that whenever a man-of-war was paid off every seaman who had served ten years, with a good character, was allowed to go at once into the Coastguard. The result was to increase the Coastguard, but, at the same time, to lessen the number of men fit for petty officers. They could not, to use a homely phrase, eat their cake and have it too. If they would have a numerous and efficient reserve of Coastguard they must take the best men from the fleet. With regard to block-ships he fully admitted that it was more desirable to have 80-gun ships in our ports. The gallant Admiral no doubt supposed that he was forwarding his object by continually coming down to the House and making the same stereotyped speech. The Admiralty were most desirous of replacing those block-ships in the way proposed. The Hastings, lately at Liverpool, a very old ship, and failing in speed, had been replaced by the Majestic. Again, at Portland, where there was a good harbour, the Colossus, or a sister ship,—an 80-gun ship—would be placed there. But there was expense attending these changes, and he wished the gallant Admiral would always mention the cost when he alluded to these notices. There was, besides, great difference of opinion as to the policy of placing seagoing ships as Coastguard ships. The gallant Officer desired that the Admiralty should be able to put men on board their ships, make them ready for sea in cases of emergency, and that the ships should be in good order and prepared to fight the enemy next day. Well, the Admiralty had just had a proof that, without making this change, ships might be made available in a few hours. Not many weeks ago it was decided by the Admiralty to place the Majestic 80-gun ship at Liverpool, instead of the Hastings block-ship, and orders were accordingly sent to Liverpool that the crew of the Hastings should proceed by railroad to Sheerness, and that the men should take possession of the Majestic and proceed to sea. The men left Liverpool at 8 o'clock one night and having reached Sheerness went on board the Majestic, and were ready for sea the next afternoon. The next point to which the gallant officer's Motion alluded was the number of the Naval Volunteers, and he stated that the number, now under 1,000, should be completed as soon as possible. He must first of all say that the gallant officer was incorrect in his figures. The Naval Volunteers did really amount to 1,000; and, considering that the force had been scarcely more than two months in existence, he thought the pro- gress made satisfactory. He did not believe that a great volunteer force could be raised suddenly. Seamen's wages were now £3 10s., and there was a great scarcity of real good seamen; and, as a great force could not be got suddenly, the Government must be satisfied with a gradual progress, unless they entered an inferior class of men, a proceeding, in his opinion, highly undesirable. The suggestions which had been made by the right hon. Members for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley), the hon. Member for Northumberland (Mr. Liddell), and others, had not been neglected, and shipping-masters had been consulted with respect to them. In proof of this, he might mention that one emanating from the gallant Admiral himself had been especially considered—namely, whether it would be advisable to pay men in advance upon their enrolment instead of at the end of the quarter. But upon this point he had received a letter from a very hard-working officer in the north, whose opinion was well worthy of respect, saying "Pray don't do anything of the kind; it will disgust the good men; men who wish really to become efficient men know that there are those who come merely to get the £1 10s. enrolment fee to get drunk upon it, and they feel that if this were carried out as a rule, such men would very soon not only disgrace themselves but the force too," and it really seemed that if the suggestion of the gallant Admiral were adopted it would probably prevent a great many men from joining the force. With respect to the short-service pensioners, the gallant Admiral asked why they were not allowed after a short service of ten years to go into the Reserve, joining the Naval Volunteers, instead of being kept in the ship. Such a proceeding could not be adopted without damaging the fleet. If all the men of ten years' service in the fleet were invited to join the volunteers, what was to become of the fleet? There would be no seamen in it. The country had got a young fleet, and he was about to show to the House what the Government had done within the last year in creation of a fleet; and, so far from the state of things being matter for censure, it was a subject for congratulation that in so short a time so many men had been raised for Her Majesty's service. The Commissioners recommended that there should be a body of Marines on shore amounting to 6,000. The gallant Admiral's view was to show the poverty of the nation's forces, and the gallant Officer had entirely overlooked the fact that the body of Marines on shore amounted to 6,178, being greater than the Commission recommended. With respect to the short-service pension Marines the same argument held good as with respect to sailors, for, if all the Marines who had served ten years were to leave for the purpose of joining the Reserve, the best men would be lost to the active service. No doubt, in some years hence, when the navy was well manned and the men could be spared, it might be desirable to have recourse to the short-service pensioners, both seamen and marines, as a reserve. The number of men enrolled in the Royal Naval Volunteers from the 1st of January, 1860, to the 30th of April, 1860, was 894; and the number of applications awaiting verification of service before the grant of certificates was eighty-three, making a total of 977 men; and he had since seen a return, according to which the number was stated to amount to 1,000. With regard now to the Coast Volunteers, there were on the registers, available for immediate service, 7,015 Royal Naval Coast Volunteers. It was essential that hon. Members should bear these figures in mind; because in the assertions made by the gallant Admiral (Sir Charles Napier) all official figures were entirely set aside, and his own fanciful estimate alone adhered to. These were all important points connected with this Manning Commission, but the most important point of all related to the boys; for, let what would be done with the Reserve, the means of enabling the country to have a really efficient navy must depend materially upon educating boys. A statement for the years 1857, 1858, and 1859 would show the increase which had been gradually taking place in the establishment of the boys. In 1857 the number of boys was 1,898, in 1858 the number was about the same, but in 1859 the number had increased to 5,147. At the present time we had no less than 8,535 boys. The hon. and gallant Admiral was therefore sadly incorrect in his estimate of the naval force. He wished to be candid, to have no reserve, because he believed the more the public knew of these matters the better for the service. Opinions might vary as to the percentage of boys which it was desirable to have in the fleet, and he did not think that point was yet satisfactorily ascertained. The percentage at present of boys was about one-sixth, but some authorities thought it ought to be as high as one-fifth. However that might be, the fact remained that we had at present 8,500 boys, who would become in a short time first-rate seamen. The hon. and gallant Admiral had talked of the impossibility of getting men for the navy—that our ships were undermanned, that the men were discontented and were unhandsomely treated. The answer to that was, that in the whole Channel fleet, consisting of twelve sail of the line and three large frigates, there was only a deficiency in warrant and petty officers and able seamen of 377. In the Mediterranean fleet, of about the same strength, the position was almost precisely similar, and a draught of about 150 men were now on their way out to fill up those vacancies. He maintained therefore that these facts did not justify the gallant Admiral coming down to the House and asking for a censure upon the Government, past as well as present, for not creating a Reserve as fast as his quick and ardent imagination led him to believe it could be created. The next point he would mention was as to training ships both for exercicing volunteers in gunnery and for the education of boys. Training ships were a most important portion of the scheme, and he would state what had been done in that matter. For the Naval Coast Volunteers there was the Hastings at Liverpool, which had been transferred from the Coastguard, and the Castor at Greenhithe. Those ships were fitted up as complete men-of-war with bedding, utensils, boats, &c., because the men lived on board during their month's drill. There was also the Brilliant in the City Canal, which was not so fitted up, because the men only went on board during the day, and there was the Trincomalee fitting to be sent to the north of England. A small steamer, the Weser, was also being got ready to take men to the mouth of the Thames in order to practise firing at targets. Those training vessels were only in addition to the innumerable guns and batteries all over England. For the training of boys one line of battle ship was fitting at Devonport, and she, no doubt, would be the forerunner of others. There were also the four brigs—one at Cork, two at Portsmouth, and one at Devonport. He thought he had shown by the facts he had adduced that the Admiralty had endeavoured to increase our Naval Reserve, and by promoting the introduction of boys to create a nursery for seamen. There was only one other point to which he felt it necessary to refer, and that was in relation to the latter portion of the hon. and gallant Admiral's Motion, that "the House is also of opinion that the bounty for able seamen ought not to have been lowered till the number wanted was complete." He (Lord C. Paget) thought he had already answered that opinion, as he had shown that our fleets were only a few men short of their proper complements, and the deficiencies were only such as the ordinary casualties would create; that we had a vast number of boys who were growing into good sailors; that they were daily entering seamen sufficient to fill up any vacancies that might exist; and that therefore it would have been unwise and unnecessary to continue the payment of a large bounty. But this was not his only reason, for he demurred to the proposition of the gallant Admiral that bounties were good things, and, indeed, he regarded the system of bounties as an unwholesome one. He admitted that last year there were strong reasons for the course which the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir J. Pakington) took in offering a large bounty, which certainly did enable the country to obtain a good many men. The present Government had lowered the bounty because they thought the offer of a large bounty was, in ordinary circumstances, an objectionable system. He believed it had been one of the causes of that craving for leave which had become apparent among the men, because they had their pockets full of money, and were always wanting opportunities for spending it, and, therefore, he held the opinion that the offer of a large bounty, except under peculiar circumstances, was unwise and detrimental to the public service. He thought he had proved to the House that the Admiralty had not been unmindful of their duty, and that it was their continual study to improve the condition of the navy, and therefore he hoped the House would not agree to the Motion of the hon. and gallant Admiral.

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON

said, he quite agreed with the noble Lord that the Motion of the gallant Admiral was too extensive in its terms and peculiar in its phraseology, and his speech too general to make it an easy task to follow him. With respect to the last portion of the Motion, indeed, he doubted whether it was framed in accordance with the rules of the House, and whether the Speaker could put a Motion which commenced by an Address to the Crown, and concluded with a Resolution. He was glad, however, to hear that the Admiralty had decided to lower the bounty, as he did not consider it was desirable to retain the bounty system as a permanent system. His sincere belief, however, was, that under the peculiar circumstances that existed last year, the late Government were justified in taking the step they did take, and the noble Lord had very frankly admitted that he took a similar view. But the adoption of that exceptional course last year did not at all imply an approval of a permanent system of bounties, and he had felt some apprehension lest the present Government might intend to continue that system. He had heard with great pleasure what had been said by his noble Friend on this subject, and thought the Government had acted with great propriety in reference to it. At the same time, while he could not concur in censuring them for what they had done, he was glad that the gallant Admiral had brought this Motion forward, because the practical question which he had submitted was one of great interest to the House and the country. What were the exertions which the Admiralty were now making to attain the all-important object of a permanent and reliable naval reserve? That was the point for consideration, and the gallant Admiral's Motion had elicited from the noble Lord a statement which would, he thought, give much satisfaction. With regard to the maintenance of reliefs at the various ports, there was no subject on which the late Board entertained greater anxiety. The Committee on Manning the Navy and the Royal Commission had made a wise recommendation on this point, and he was very glad to hear from the noble Lord that if the numbers voted by Parliament were completed, there would be in the ports somewhere about 4,000 men available for immediate service afloat. He did hope the successive Boards of Admiralty would never lose sight of this point, and that the House of Commons would never hesitate to grant every year the necessary funds to prevent the disgraceful spectacle of men-of-war lying in harbour for weeks and months before they could complete their complement of men. With regard to the Coastguard, he was glad to hear what fell from the noble Lord. He understood the noble Lord to say that, the Royal Commissioners having recommended the raising of this force to 12,000 men, the Admiralty were now aiming to procure that number. He feared that the Estimates on the table were for a number far less than 12,000, but if he understood his noble Friend rightly, the Estimates of the present year did not ask 12,000 Coastguard men, as they could not hope to obtain them this year, but that it was the intention of the Board of Admiralty to raise that amount. He thought that was a very important statement, and to no one would it be more satisfactory than to the gallant Admiral. With regard to the Royal Naval Volunteers, the statement of the noble Lord was not so satisfactory as he could have wished. Now, it might appear a trifling matter, but he would ask whether the Board were doing well to retain that name. We had already the Naval Coast Volunteers, and would it not be better to have a distinct title for each, and to call the new force by the very intelligible name of the Royal Naval Reserve? The main point was how soon this would become an effective and available force. He did not despair of seeing the number of men who came forward considerably increased, and he trusted that the Admiralty would spare no exertions to complete the number. The noble Lord had spoken of the scarcity of seamen as one reason for the slow increase of this Reserve force. It was most undesirable, both in the interests of the Royal Navy and of the merchant service, that such a scarcity should exist, and, with a view to supply the want, he quite agreed with the noble Lord as to the great importance of increasing the number of boys in the service. Whether the proportion of boys to seamen should be one-fifth or one-sixth, he would not venture to say; but it should be remembered that whatever abstractedly might be the desirable proportion, it must be difficult, if not impossible to fix that proportion with precision so long as the House of Commons were in the habit of voting at the request of the Government a fluctuating number of seamen each year. However this might be, the surest way of maintaining the navy was to train up men for ourselves, and always to take care to have a large number of boys in training. From the latter part of the speech of his noble Friend he hoped it might be inferred that the Government intended to carry out the whole recommendation of the Royal Commission on this subject. [Lord C. PAGET: Hear.] He was glad to hear that cheer, and wished also to know whether the recommendation respecting school ships would be followed. This recommendation most wisely went far beyond the mere requirements of the Royal Navy. The Commission contemplated the training of boys, so as to supply the merchant marine also, and no part of their Report was sounder and more judicious. It was to be hoped that, as the result of the measures suggested by the Commission, cordial relations would be established between the two services, so that merchant seamen might be led to enter the navy freely in times of emergency. Altogether he gladly accepted the noble Lord's statement that the Admiralty were doing all they could to insure the efficient manning of the navy, and the formation of a Reserve which should be instantly available in case of need.

SIR MICHAEL SEYMOUR

observed, there could be no question, either in that House or elsewhere, of the great importance of carrying out the recommendations of the Royal Commissioners, as there could be no more important question for the country than that there should be always ready a sufficient number of seamen in reserve to man our ships to meet any emergency that might arise. He looked upon the statement of the noble Lord as highly satisfactory, and he had no reason to doubt that the recommendations of the Royal Commissioners would be carried out in a manner which would prove satisfactory to the House and the country. The subject of manning the navy, however, could not be too constantly dwelt upon. He must say that, with our voluntary system, we had hitherto laboured under great disadvantages as compared with the nations in which compulsory service was the rule. We stood alone in our arrangements in that respect, as we were in effect living under a free trade in seamen. One by one the proclamations and orders in council and Acts of Parliament—by which our seamen were to be made available for manning our fleet—had been withdrawn or fallen into desuetude. Our navigation laws had been swept away under which a numerous and hardy race of able-bodied seamen had been bred as apprentices in our coasting trade, and the whole tendency and character of modern legislation had been such as to diminish our command of able-bodied seamen for the navy. At the same time our commerce had not declined, but had steadily increased; nor had our colonial interests diminished. At the present moment we had a great number of our seamen in the United States Navy, tempted there, of course, by the larger pay, and the system which enabled them to remit their pay to their families if in this country. He trusted that the day was far distant when any hostile emergency would arise; but as things stood at present he was at a loss to understand how we were to furnish the requisite number of men to meet a sudden and urgent increase of armament. In 1812 we had troops and volunteers to the extent of 800,000, and we had in the navy 600 ships in commission, of which ninety were line-of-battle ships. It is difficult to understand how our power then displayed could be now equalled in the event of any interruption to our friendly relations with other countries. If peace were maintained, it must be by the maintenance of a force which should be able to continue the supremacy we had always possessed; and he would only express his most earnest hope that the Government, by carrying out without delay the recommendations of the Royal Commissioners, would best secure the interests and maintain the honour of the country.

MR. CORRY

said, that he had been taken to task last year for talking upon such a vulgar subject as expense, in relation to the question of substituting more efficient vessels for the block-ships. He did not think they should incur useless expenditure, and he believed that great expense would be occasioned by such a measure without any corresponding advantage, as, on the block-ship being put out of commission, the stores and materials, on which a large sum had been expended, and which were sufficient to last out the commission, could not be made available for the ships which replaced them, and after the new ship had been in commission for some time, before she could go to sea all kinds of repairs would be necessary, such as relaying the decks and recaulking, which would occupy as much time as to bring forward a new ship. In illustration of the loss which would thus be occasioned, he would state that the first cost for masts, yards, sails, and other stores for a block-ship was £16,000, which would make a total of £128,000 for the whole, a great part of which would be lost, and, as he thought, for no adequate object by the proposed arrangement. The best way to deal with the block-ships was to let them die a natural death and wear themselves out. He was very glad to hear the noble Lord's statement, that the Reserve force was going on satisfactorily. He had always, however, he confessed, placed more reliance on the Reserve that was kept by the Admiralty in permanent pay than on that portion which was obtained by a re- taining fee, and he trusted that every effort would be made to complete the Reserve of 4,000 seamen in the ports recommended by the Commission. He hoped his noble Friend would see to the organization of the Marine Reserve Force to the full number of 20,000, as recommended by the Manning Commission. They were men well trained in gunnery, and would be most useful in case of emergency. With regard to the Royal Marines he understood the noble Lord to say that the Commission recommended a Reserve on shore of 6,000. He thought that was a misapprehension on the part of the noble Lord. What the Commissioners did say was, that the usual number of Royal Marines in reserve on shore was 6,000; but they recommended that an addition of 5,000 should be made to that number, so as to raise the whole number to 11,000. He believed that since the Report was issued there had been 3,000 added to the Reserve, so that it only required the addition of 2,000 more Marines to give effect to that recommendation. He hoped the Government would make that addition during the present year; and that a large portion of that increase would be composed of Marine Artillery. No better reserve for handling guns on board ship could be had, in conjunction with a sufficient number of blue jackets. With regard to the question of leave, he thought that that was a matter that should be left entirely to the officers, and that it would be most injurious to discipline to establish any regulation by which the men could, at any time, claim leave as a matter of right, but he also thought that caprice in granting leave was a great misfortune, and that in large fleets a uniform system should be established by the Admiral for each ship, leaving to the captain a discretionary power to be exercised under special circumstances only. With regard to the Coast Volunteers he certainly could not support the Motion of his hon. and gallant Friend, if only from the mode in which he spoke of that body. The hon. and gallant Admiral said that force was not to be depended upon. [Sir CHARLES NAPIER: It is in the Report of the Committee.] He believed they were a most valuable corps. They were effective, well conducted, and very willing to perform their duty. He hoped after the satisfactory statement of his noble Friend the Secretary of the Admiralty, his hon. and gallant Friend would not think it necessary to divide the House. If he did he (Mr. Corry) must vote against him.

SIR GEORGE PECHELL

said, he believed his noble Friend the Secretary for the Admiralty had a sincere desire to carry out all that the Commission required. He was glad to hear many of the statements made by his noble Friend, but he heard none with greater pleasure than that which he had made about the great increase in the number of boys in the navy. He believed there had not been a naval discussion in that House for twenty-five years in which he had not endeavoured to impress on the Government the necessity of training boys for the navy. By the present system of training the Volunteers they went on board a block-ship, in which they had not to take care of their own clothes or to wash their own linen, but the seamen had to do all the work; and that was one of the points in which seamen on board the block-ships thought they were ill-used; and another result was that the Volunteers were not taught their business. The Commission had recommended the abolition of the system of allowing freight for specie. The existence of that system had been the source of great favouritism and jobbing. He thought that the freight should no longer be received by the captains, but that it should be applied towards the pensions for the widows of warrant officers, who were now told by the Admiralty that pensions to them did not come within the scope of the regulations.

ADMIRAL WALCOTT

I think there are many subjects bearing upon the navy and those engaged in its service, which would be more properly left in the hands of the Admiralty than brought under the notice of the House of Commons; for the consequence is that the men, instead of looking to their officers are taught to look to this House, to the great injury of naval discipline. I regret to hear that there are many seamen seen in the streets of Portsmouth and Devonport in a state of drunkenness; the remedy would be a regulation of the number allowed to go ashore by the Admiralty, but at the same time the endeavour should be made to induce better habits among the men by means of libraries, so that they may be able to instruct and amuse themselves on board in a rational manner. I see no advantage derivable from the increase of the Coastguard to 12,000 men, with a large reduction of Customs' duties; there should be rather a corresponding diminution in their numbers, while at present the best men are being transferred by the Admiralty from the navy to the Coastguard. Petty officers should not thus be removed, but men who had passed a long period of unbroken time should receive a larger pension. I regret to see so many instances of insubordination in the navy; every such display should be crushed, as we would trample on the hot cinders that threaten to set fire to our houses; for, unless this be done, when England wants her navy, she will find it a discredit and of no use. The block-ships are perfectly suitable to the nature of their employment, and had better remain until their stores are worn out, instead of being replaced by fine ships that ought not to lie idle. Eight years since, in 1852 when I first entered Parliament, I denounced the custom of ordering ships home and dismantling them while they were in a state of the highest efficiency, and their stores, not half worn out were, instead of being made available, worked up as junk. Another ship should be provided by the Admiralty for the reception of the officers and crews, the riggers should dismantle them and return their stores for future use, and hundreds and thousands of pounds would be saved. Within the last thirty years I have no hesitation in estimating the amount that would have been saved at £1,000,000 had this course been followed. In 1853, and on every subsequent discussion on the Naval Estimates, I have impressed upon the First Lord of the Admiralty the necessity for securing boys in the seaports for the future manning of the navy. The merchant service employs 180,000 seamen, of whom we cannot expect any great number to enter the Royal Navy in time of peace. On the occurrence of war, however, they would, being out of employment, naturally turn to the Queen's service. Every year 3,000 to 4,000 boys should be draughted into the navy, and a training ship should be stationed in every mercantile port; we should now have had, if my recommendation had been followed, a large reserve of 10,000 to 15,000 able seamen for the fleet. The great matter of importance is to place in such training ships, officers of skill, temper, and kindly habits and disposition, such men as Captain Harris of the Britannia and late of the Illustrious, who had trained up several valuable lads for the navy; at eighteen years of age they would be fit for the mizen-top and other duties of the ship. I have heard with considerable pleasure the noble Lord announce that independently of frigates, we have twenty-four sail of the line ready for any emergency. With dependencies and colonies widely dissevered, and an extensive commerce to protect, and bearing in mind the great uncertainty as to the maintenance of peace, it is the first duty of precaution and fidelity to our country to maintain and make provision for a navy in the highest possible state of efficiency and strength.

SIR HARRY VERNEY

said, he believed that the admission of boys into training ships was a step of great value to the service. He had received a letter from a young officer on a foreign station, which, as it bore upon the question, the House would, perhaps, allow him to read. The writer begged of him to bear his testimony to the value of training ships for boys. There were half a dozen lads on board his ship who had come from a training brig. Every one was the picture of a sailor, and they had astonished the old hands by their aptitude in the duties of a ship. As an instance, he added that one of his men who entered as an able seaman and got a bounty of £10, being ordered by the boatswain to make a mat, half an hour afterwards he found him fiddling with the rope. The boatswain abused him for his ignorance, and called one of the boys, from the training ship, who set to work, and did it in a workmanlike manner. As a civilian he could not help feeling astonished that when a ship was paid off the country should lose the valuable services of men who had perhaps been for years in training. It was not so in the army, but soldiers acquired an esprit de corps which made them proud to belong to the regiments of which they had been members. Could not some such feeling be introduced into the navy?

MR. BENTINCK

said, the hon. and gallant Admiral (Sir Charles Napier) deserved the gratitude of the country for the energetic and determined manner in which he had called the attention of the House and the country to their national defences, or rather to their want of defences at a time when it was less directed to the subject than its importance demanded. On that occasion he had elicited very important information from the noble Lord, but having done that, he hoped his hon. and gallant Friend would rest satisfied, and not press his Motion to a division. He (Mr. Bentinck) for one was highly gratified that he had brought it forward. The first topic which the gallant Admiral had touched upon was that of a bounty to sailors, and he was glad to hear from the Secretary of the Admiralty (Lord Clarence Paget) that, in his opinion, the system of bounty was a very unwholesome system. He (Mr. Bentinck) had always been of that opinion, but it appeared to him to be a matter of regret that a system once established had not been continued by the Admiralty until the number required for the naval service had been completed. He, therefore, considered that the discontinuance of that bounty was premature until the requisite number of men was obtained. His (Mr. Bentinck's) principal object in rising was to say a word or two about the Coastguard, and although his gallant Friend near him (Admiral Walcott) anticipated that as they had adopted the principle of free trade there was no necessity for a Coastguard, he would admit that if they really had free trade in operation there ought to be no Coastguard, but if his gallant Friend wished to see that he feared that he would have to wait for some time. As to the services of the Coastguard, a return had that day been sent to him by an officer commanding that body, and from that he found that they had performed services to an extent that few were aware of. The amount of property saved by the Coastguard of Great Britain in the year 1859 was £791,000, while by the energies of the same body of men in the same period they had saved 1,243 lives. Surely, then, the utility of that force ought not to be estimated only by the services which it rendered to the revenue, or by the addition which it made to the defences of our coast, and such being the case he hoped it would be brought up to the proper standard as early as possible. His noble Friend had stated that it now numbered 6,862 efficient men—a statement which he (Mr. Bentinck) had heard with pleasure and surprise; for a noble Lord in "another place" had said a short time ago that it was composed of only 3,200 really efficient seamen. The gallant Admiral (Sir Charles Napier) in speaking of the improvidence of seamen, had said that when going to sea they had thrown their money overboard; and he (Mr. Bentinck) could not help thinking that if they had seats in this House those gentlemen would be found steady supporters of the financial policy of Her Majesty's Government. He could not understand what advantage there was in making use of ricketty old ships that were not fit to go from one port to another in bad weather, instead of good, seaworthy vessels. The question of manning the navy lay in a nutshell. The merchant service showed no difficulty in obtaining good men, because they paid the market price for them, and the Admrialty could get them, too, if they only pursued the same course. It was a simple question of pounds, shillings, and pence, and it was to him a matter of regret that while millions were wasted in various ways, the Government should pursue an unwise parsimony with regard to manning the navy.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, they had held out every inducement to obtain men from the merchant-service; but it had proved a total failure, and for that there must be some important cause. The hon. Gentleman who had just spoken, seemed to think it was because the Government did not offer the seamen the market price for their services; but, taking all things into consideration, there could be no doubt that the Royal Navy offered the sailor more advantages than the mercantile marine. Men, however, would not enter the navy, notwithstanding the high wages which were offered to them, and he had communications from all parts of the country stating that the cause of this was that men would not enter the navy on account of the flogging. As it was, with every inducement offered not one thousand men could be found to enter the navy; and he (Mr. Williams) believed the cause of all that was because they disliked the flogging. He saw within the last two days, in an American paper, that a motion had been made in the House of Representatives for a return of the different modes of punishment adopted in the navy of the United States, instead of flogging, where it had been found impossible to obtain seamen, so long as a system of flogging prevailed; but as soon as it was abolished, some years since, men enlisted willingly. Of the 10,000 seamen obtained by us during the last year, by means of the £10 bounty, only 1,400 belonged to the mercantile service. He repeated there must be some cause for this reluctance on the part of the merchant seamen to enter the Royal Navy. They were most probably disgusted at that system of flogging which still continued in the Royal Navy, and was a disgrace to the country. There was no such thing in the American navy; and that was the only country in the world whose navy we did not look in the face with a hostile feeling. Flogging had ceased in the American service; and if it were put an end to in our own service, the effect would be as beneficial as in the American service. If they were not satisfied that he was right, they ought to inquire and ascertain what was the real cause.

LORD LOVAINE

said, he was rather astonished at the statement of the hon. Member for Lambeth, that the Admiralty had never attempted to discover the real cause of the difficulty experienced in getting men for the navy. Within his recollection there had been three separate Commissions for that very purpose. The £10 bounty had not failed, as it had enabled them to man a larger fleet than we had had for the last thirty years. He had never heard of a single protest from seamen against flogging on board ship. It was very rarely, indeed, that men were flogged in the navy. The hon. Gentleman forgot what was due to an honourable service, when he talked of brutal punishments being administered in the navy under the eyes of naval officers. On the part of a class who were distinguished for their humanity and kindness, he protested against the implied censure cast upon them. The hon. Gentleman wondered how it happened that the Naval Reserve was not rapidly filled up with able seamen; but the truth was that able seamen did not exist. He found, from the evidence given before a Committee sitting up-stairs, that in the great mercantile City of London it was becoming more difficult every year to obtain able seamen. The introduction of steam into the mercantile navy, had to a great extent dispensed with the services of able seamen; and that was the reason why the Royal Navy found it so difficult in these days to obtain able seamen from the mercantile service. The men on board steamships could not be called able seamen. They might be made so; but they were not able seamen when they went on board Her Majesty's ships. He believed that the only plan which offered the slightest chance of success was to retain a proper reserve, and to train boys from childhood for the service in school ships. With respect to the suggestion as to the pay given to seamen in the Royal Navy, it should not be forgotten that, to whatever amount the Admiralty raised their pay, the owners of merchant ships were sure to raise the pay of their men to the same amount. Many men, no doubt, had been deterred from entering, by having read in their youth unfounded statements as to the cruel treatment of men on board ship; but he was surprised to hear the hon. Member for Lambeth repeat such boys' tales.

MR. WHITBREAD

said, it was not the fact that men were not entering the navy, because they were entering in great numbers. The entry of ordinary seamen was stopped about a month ago. They were only entering able seamen, except in the case of a few ordinary seamen in whom the officers had confidence. There was considerable difference of opinion among the Commissioners on Manning the Navy, whether the abolition of the lash would be popular among the able and well-conducted men, and there was a great deal of reason to believe that the discipline of the service was not at all too severe for ill-behaved and skulking fellows, who would throw additional work if they could on their better-conducted shipmates. As to the Coastguard, the capacity of the men to man the fleet in time of emergency was not to be measured by their numbers. They were the pick of the men, and by a mere proportion being put on board a man-of-war, the rest of the crew could be easily organized and brought into order. The wisdom and forethought of the Commissioners in recommending a reserve had been proved by the difficulty experienced in providing it suddenly. It required time to bring together a proper reserve. The public had seen the difficulty, but were determined that it should be overcome. He hoped that the gallant Admiral would not trouble the House to divide, as the figures in his Motion were inaccurate. When he said that the Naval Coast Volunteers were "not to be depended upon," he was not borne out by the language of the Commissioners' Report. What they said was that the country could not place reliance on men who could not be taken more than 100 leagues from the coast, which was very different from the offensive phrase of the gallant Admiral.

SIR CHARLES NAPIER

replied. He thought that the Report of the Manning Commission did justify the terms of his Motion as to the Coastguard. With reference to the observation of the Secretary to the Admiralty, that his constant complaints about the management of the navy had produced great discontent amongst seamen, he might retort that he had never made an unfounded charge like that made by the noble Lard against the management of the navy—namely, that within a few years there was an apparent defalcation of £5,000,000. The Surveyor of the Navy had satisfactorily explained what was done with that money. There had been five mutinies in the fleet since the noble Lord became Secretary to the Admiralty. Having shown to the House how very far the Admiralty were from having carried into effect the recommendations of the Manning Commission with respect to the Naval Reserve, he thought he had discharged his duty, and would not press his Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.