§ MR. T. S. DUNCOMBEsaid, he rose to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether there would be any objection to the Minutes of Proceedings of the House of Lords being laid daily upon the Table of this House. As he wished to obtain the opportunity of making a few observations, he would, to put himself in order, move that the House at its rising adjourn to Monday next. The production of Minutes of the House of Lords would not only contribute to the more satisfactory despatch of business, but would prevent a repetition of the absurd farce which took place about a month ago, when the noble Lord moved the appointment of a Committee for the purpose of searching the Journals of the House of Lords to see what had been done in reference to the paper duty, when every man, woman, and child in the kingdom knew four days before what had taken place. It was formerly quite right that search should be made in the Journals of the Lords at a time when mystery surrounded the proceedings of the two Houses of Parliament. It was then a breach of privilege to publish the debates, whereas 857 now the press was officially recognized in that House, and reported the proceedings with an accuracy, expedition, and a fidelity which were the envy and admiration of surrounding nations. Strangers now were admitted to the galleries, and were no longer removed during divisions. Formerly hon. Members did not leave the House, but divided to right and left of the chair, and were counted by two Gentlemen, and it was a breach of privilege to publish anything in relation to the division. But now the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons were published to the world, and the House of Lords had a copy of those proceedings on their table, and openly referred to them, and discussed them in their debates. The House of Commons, however, if they wished to obtain an official knowledge of anything that had taken place in the other House, were obliged to appoint a Committee to search their Journals, though it was true the Minutes of the Lords' proceedings were in the library, where they were of no use whatever. He thought it would tend materially to the despatch of public business if these were officially laid on the table of the House, and if hon. Members possessed the power of referring to them.
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONMy hon. Friend will recollect that there are two sources from which documents are received on which any action by this House can take place. One of these is from the Crown when papers are presented by command or are officially laid on the table; the other source is when they are furnished in obedience to the order of this House for the production of certain documents. Now the Journals in which the proceedings of the House of Lords are entered are not in the possession of the Crown, which has no more cognizance of them than we have, and therefore cannot order any responsible Minister to lay these papers on the table of this House. I apprehend it would be contrary to all the reciprocal usages and mutual privileges of the two Houses for either to order the other to furnish its proceedings. Therefore in neither of these modes, which 1 imagine are the only channels by which official records reach us, can the proceedings of the House of Lords be laid on our table. But my hon. Friend is probably aware that by reciprocal courtesy the Minutes of each House are communicated to the other. About sixteen copies of the Proceedings of the House of Lords are daily transmitted to this House—one 858 copy for the library and the others for distribution to different officers of the House, and it will be perfectly easy if it should be thought more convenient to have one copy laid upon the table, instead of in the library. It is quite true, as my hon. Friend says, that the House of Lords have founded Resolutions of their own on the records of this House, which were laid upon their table, and we might undoubtedly pursue the same course. But, generally speaking, I apprehend—and you, Mr. Speaker, will correct me if I am wrong—it is not the habit of the House of Commons to found proceedings except on documents that are officially in our possession. My hon. Friend says the proceedings of the House of Lords are well known to everybody, from being reported in the newspapers, and that no doubt can exist as to what has taken place. But that remark applies much more extensively than to the proceedings of the House of Lords. There are various matters of which all of us have personal cognizance, events of public notoriety, which are recorded in the newspapers; but with regard to these before any formal Act of this House can be taken we require to have some written document officially and responsibly put on the table, either in answer to an Address from the Crown or by the order of the House, directed to those persons who are bound to obey our directions. I therefore very much doubt—even if an arrangement could be made by which one copy of the proceedings of the House of Lords would be laid on our Table, either instead of or in addition to that already in the library—whether the House would be disposed to make it a foundation for any serious measure. I think it would be a departure from our ordinary course, and I confess I do not quite perceive the value of the difference which it would produce in the expedition of our proceedings. My hon. Friend says we ought to dispense with the formal appointment of a Committee to search the Journals of the Lords. But that course is a very easy one; there is no difficulty in the way; it is a question merely of a short period of time, and I do not see that we should gain anything in point of expedition by substituting for the authentic report of the Committee a copy of the Journals of the House of Lords. On the contrary, I think the step would lose some portion of its weight; for, although everybody would know that the printed paper was an accurate transcript of the Minutes of Proceedings in the other House, 859 yet, as a foundation for legislative action, I think it would be more satisfactory to have the extract taken from the Journals themselves. Having stated what the practice is, I apprehend, Mr. Speaker, there will be no difficulty, under your directions, in having a copy of the Minutes of the House of Lords placed on the table of this House, for the information of hon. Members, in addition to that which may be consulted in the library. I think the House, probably, will be disposed to leave the matter in your hands, and will feel that you will make such an arrangement as may be satisfactory to all.