§ COLONEL FRENCHsaid, he rose to move for leave to introduce a Bill to ex- 429 tend to Ireland all powers to make rules and regulations for the enrolment and organization of Volunteer Corps, which were now by law applicable to Great Britain. The noble Lord at the head of the Government had already, he regretted to say, expressed his intention to oppose any attempt to raise Volunteer Corps in Ireland; but he had also, in the course of an eloquent speech at a dinner at the Mansion House, pronounced a warm eulogy in favour of the Volunteer movement. How the noble Lord could reconcile that speech with the course the Government had announced their intention to adopt on the subject of Volunteer Corps for Ireland, he was unable to understand. Would the noble Lord take upon himself the responsibility of refusing the aid of 50,000 Irish Volunteers, as efficient for Her Majesty's service as any of the Volunteers embodied in this country or in Scotland? It was clear, from the noble Lord calling on the House to vote £9,000,000 for fortifications, that the noble Lord did not consider the possibility of an invasion a matter to be disregarded; but, while Plymouth, Portsmouth, Dovor, the Thames, and other places were to be fortified, the noble Lord proposed to leave Ireland perfectly defenceless; though during the last great war Ireland was three times invaded by the French, at Carrickfergus, at Bantry, and at Killala. In the event of the invasion of England, every soldier would be withdrawn from Ireland, in order to defend this country; and probably the Irish Constabulary, which was paid out of the Consolidated Fund, would be withdrawn also. All that Ireland would then have to depend upon would be the services of 40,000 disembodied Militia; but if Ireland were also allowed to have the services of 50,000 Volunteers, she, with such a force, fighting for their homes, their wives, and children, would be able to repel any army which the French, or any other Continental nation, could send to those shores; and if a foreign army succeeded even in effecting a landing, but few of the men would return to their own country to tell the tale. Every difficulty had been thrown in the way of the formation of Irish Volunteer Corps; and he believed that the same difficulties would have been opposed in England to the Volunteer Movement, if they could have been ventured on; and it certainly was not owing to any fostering care on the part of the Government that that movement bad succeeded. At a meeting lately held in Dublin a resolution was una- 430 nimously passed, to the effect that the enrolment of a Volunteer force was as essential in Ireland as in Great Britain; and that the refusal or delay to assimilate the law of the two countries on this subject, excited jealousy where union should prevail, and was unconstitutional; and the meeting pledged itself neither at present, nor at any future time, to permit the Volunteer Movement in Ireland to partake of a party or sectarian character. How long, he asked, was this system of insult to Ireland to continue; and how long were Continental nations to be told that Ireland was the weakest part of the Queen's dominions, and that the people of that country could not be trusted with arms? He believed the statement to be totally destitute of foundation; and that there was no part of the Queen's dominions where an invasion would be more strenuously repelled than in Ireland. Was this policy of setting classes and creeds against each other to be continued? The noble Lord at the head of the Government recently alluded to the collision which took place near Lurgan; but let the blame be placed in the proper quarter, on the policy of the English Government towards Ireland, a policy disgraceful to the one and degrading to the other. He might here relate an anecdote respecting two Irish gentlemen—one a Catholic, and the other an Orangeman—who travelled pleasantly together abroad for some days. On the Catholic learning that his companion was an Orangeman, he expressed his surprise, saying, "I always thought you Orangemen were ready to cut our throats." The Orangeman replied, "That is because we believe you are always going to do the same with us,"—a state of feeling which the conduct of the English executive Government goes far to perpetuate. He (Colonel French) proposed that there should be an assimilation of the law of England and Ireland; and that power should be taken to make rules and regulations for the formation of Volunteer Corps in Ireland. He was assured by high legal authority that no Act of Parliament was required for this purpose, and that the Queen, by the common law, had the power to accept the services of her subjects in Ireland, under such stipulations as she chose to establish. Nevertheless, he should ask for leave to introduce a Bill with the object he had mentioned. It was said that it would be dangerous to leave arms in the hands of the Volunteers. But the rifles were not left in the hands of the 431 English Volunteers; they were deposited in depôts, and were only taken out when required for purposes of drill. If his noble Friend would only, as a novelty, try a policy of confidence in Ireland, he would certainly find it answer. At present, the Chief Secretary, from his associations and short experience of the country, could have but little knowledge of the Roman Catholics in Ireland; whilst the latter were shut out altogether from the civil and military Government of the country. If the noble Lord at the head of the Government thought they were going to stand that much longer, he would find out his mistake. Already the separation between the Irish party and the present Government was becoming visible. Unless the noble Lord altered his policy, an Irish Liberal Member sitting on his side of the House would become a rara avis. There was an inkling in some quarters that the Earl of Derby's Government was not such a terrible thing, after all, for Ireland. For the purpose of promoting confidence, bringing together Catholic and Protestant, of preserving life and property in Ireland, and enabling her to assist England in repelling invasion, he hoped the House would give him leave to introduce the Bill.
§ MR. CARDWELLsaid, he did not think the House would consider it expedient or judicious to accede to the Motion, nor would it, in his opinion, give general satisfaction even in Ireland if Volunteer corps were organized there. His hon. Friend proposed to assimilate the law of the two countries, and afterwards leave it optional with the Government to carry the laws when assimilated into force and institute these corps; but that was not a position which could be laid down with propriety in the present instance. Had the law been originally the same, it might indeed have been left to the Executive to make a different application of it to different parts of the country, according to the circumstances of the case. But, if the Government were to encourage his hon. Friend to bring in a measure changing the law in Ireland as it had existed from the Peace of Amiens down to the present time, the necessary inference in the public mind would be that they intended to act immediately upon the law so altered, and, in fact, it would almost amount to an engagement to do so. Now, he did not think it would be right to take such a step at the present moment; and the ground upon which the government arrived at that conclusion had been frequently 432 stated. They had not the slightest doubt that it would be possible to obtain in Ireland at the shortest notice as large a body of men devoted to their sovereign and their country as any Government could desire, and they believed the members of both Churches alike would present themselves with that object. Experience justified such an expectation. It was true that at the close of the last century a demonstration of this kind had, in its result, proved in some respects unsatisfactory, yet it was gratifying to find, from the historians of the time, that the moment there was any real apprehension of invasion all party animosities ceased, and though the Catholics were then prevented from bearing arms, they came forward with their subscriptions in order to raise a national force for the defence of Ireland. If that was the case, then the same feeling might, with far more confidence, be expected now. But, though no one need distrust the loyalty of Ireland, it could not be denied that there were other important considerations which it was necessary to bear in mind. What would be the consequence in a, domestic point of view of arming large numbers of people in the sister country? The hon. Gentleman said it would bring together Catholic and Protestant. But would it bring them together in such a way as to promote harmony, or the opposite of harmony? In former times it had been found that great danger attended the possession of arms by those who, not being animated by the best feelings towards each other, perhaps, at any time, were carried away by some momentary excitement, and, as we had recently seen, were then liable to become enemies instead of friends. This was a result which of all others the Government ought most to deprecate and to guard against. The great town of Belfast was at this moment subject to proclamation under the Peace Preservation Act, because, after the party strife which had unhappily arisen there, the rival parties began to form themselves into rival gun-clubs, which led to the most serious apprehensions lest the peace should be broken. It was on account of these occasional and transient animosities existing in some parts of Ireland that the Government hesitated to call upon the loyalty of the people, in which they had as much confidence as in the loyalty of other parts of the Queen's dominions. He believed that this decision gave general satisfaction in Ireland, because it was a fact that, notwithstanding the 433 desire of the Irish people to rally round the Throne, the number of applications for the formation of Volunteer corps had been very small since the determination of the Government not to organize those corps. The evidence of public feeling referred to by his hon. Friend was not such as would induce the House to take a forward step in this direction. He repeated that the Government entertained no doubt that, should an emergency arise. Irishmen would display conspicuous devotion to the Throne, but they were of opinion that in the present circumstances of Ireland the possession of arms by large masses of the people would be undesirable. Whenever invasion appeared imminent they were satisfied that Irishmen would come forward for the protection of their coasts in such a way as would make it unnecessary to take these steps in advance, and, on the whole, they felt they would be acting most wisely for the interests of the country, and most in accordance with matured public opinion in Ireland itself, by refusing their support to the Motion.
§ MR. MAGUIRENow, Sir, I would like to know whether there is a single Irish Member in the House who is satisfied with the answer given by the right hon. Gentleman? In this House we are accustomed to a certain style of conventional phraseology, and we are often compelled to receive, as valid and sufficient, excuses which are flimsy and illusory. But anything so shallow, so barefaced, anything, in fact, so nearly bordering upon palpable humbug, as the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, I confess I have never heard. The right hon. Gentleman has referred to the events of 1798, and stated that at that period, when there was an alarm of invasion, Irishmen rallied round their Sovereign. I ask, Sir, is there an Englishman who can reflect without a blush—provided he has the faculty of blushing—on the condition in which Ireland was left a few years previous to that eventful time. In the year 1782, the whole defensive means vouchsafed by England and Ireland, against a foreign invasion, consisted of half a troop of horse and a company of invalids. No doubt, the spirit of Ireland rose with the emergency, and as gallant an army, entirely composed of volunteers, soon arose in Ireland as ever stood in armed strength upon the soil of any country in the world. But, perhaps, on looking back to what happened afterwards, mainly through the instrumentality of that native army, the right 434 hon. Gentleman is apprehensive of what might again happen under similar circumstances. The Irish Secretary, speaking in the name of his Government, declares that they would only call upon Irishmen to come forward in defence of their country in case there was any real apprehension of danger. But, if there be no real apprehension of danger, such as would justify the Government in calling on Irishmen to arm, why is it, I should like to know, the noble Lord calls upon the overburthened taxpayers of the Empire for a sum of £12,000,000—it really may mean £22,000,000—for national defences? Will the noble Lord answer this question now, or when he is next making the proposal to this House? Against whom or what is the country to defend itself? Why is England to fortify her shores? Whence is she menaced by danger? If there is no danger, there need be no additional defences; but if England is really menaced, is not Ireland also in danger? We all know that the speech of the noble Lord shadowed forth danger from France; but for the Government, at one moment, to say that there is danger of invasion, and then to say at another that there is no danger whatever, involves a monstrous absurdity. After the declaration of the Secretary for Ireland, I cannot see how any representative of the taxpayers of this country, who have already been asked for more than £30,000,000 for naval and military defences, can vote for the proposition of the noble Lord,—for the Government publicly proclaim that no real cause for apprehension exists. But is there any danger? We must suppose that there is; or, if not, then this House has been practically legislating under false pretences for the whole of this Session—from the delivery of the Speech from the Throne, to the demand made by the noble Lord at the head of Her Majesty's Government. If there is danger, then, Sir, I must ask the question—is Ireland really a portion of a common empire, or is she not? If she is not, then I can understand the policy of the Government; but if it be said she is, how is it possible to account for it? I confess I am at a loss to reconcile the statement of this evening with what we have been doing for this long Session; because if there is no danger for Ireland, and that she does not stand in need of a volunteer force, why is it that we have heard an appeal in favour of increased national defences? Sir, I believe there is danger, and I ask, why is Ireland 435 left unprepared, while England is preparing for defence? The right hon. Gentleman appeals to the past; but is there any possible analogy between the circumstances of the present time and those of the period to which he refers? If steam power had been employed some sixty years ago for the propulsion of vessels of war, Ireland might at the present day be under French rule. In former times, a contrary wind was sufficient to baffle the best-laid schemes of an attacking force, and a single storm scattered the mightiest armament ever prepared by the genius or power of an invader. But what is the case in these times? There is scarcely a miserable cockle-shell of a packet boat plying between the coast of France and the const of England that cannot calculate her arrival to a quarter of an hour, and it rarely happens that any one of those vessels is an hour behind her regular time. A steam fleet might now reach the shores of Ireland at any point, or at any time, arranged by the invader. Does the right hon. Gentleman mean to wait for a sudden danger, and then leave the Irish people unprepared to meet it? Is there any such peculiar aptitude for arms in the Irish people, that they could be expected to repel an invading force, without ever having been taught the use of a musket or a rifle, without once having fired at a mark, or even having acquired the mysteries of the "goose step"—an accomplishment jealously reserved for England? If Ireland is expected to repel an invader, her people must be taught the use of arms in time. My hon. and gallant Friend said that 50,000 volunteers would make short work of any hostile force that could land in Ireland. That, no doubt, is my hon. and gallant Friend's opinion; but notwithstanding my own favourable estimate of the valour of my countrymen, I fear there is somewhat of "bounce" in his statement. The fact is, the people of Ireland must be regularly trained to the use of arms, and if they are expected to resist the invader, they should be well practised in the use of the necessary weapons of defence; and it will not do when perhaps the smoke from a French fleet is darkening the harbours of Ireland, for a Government to send them a telegram from London, telling them to defend themselves. The policy of the Government towards Ireland is a bad policy. It is a policy of suspicion, and not of confidence. It is practically saying to the people of that country—"We don't care about you; 436 we distrust you; we will not give to you that which implies trust or confidence—the right to bear arms for your defence." It is not the way to make Ireland loyal and devoted to the institutions of this country, by withholding this proof of confidence from them, and debarring them from the privileges of their English fellow-subjects. The Government may affect to say "Oh, we have no doubt whatever of your loyalty; we have the most profound reverence for it: we implicitly believe in it." But, Sir, does this impose upon n single human being? No; for notwithstanding your trust and confidence in their loyalty and attachment, you refuse them arms. The reason assigned for this refusal is, that an occasional squabble or conflict takes place between bodies of Orangemen and angry Catholic mobs. But whose fault is it if such scenes occur? If bad blood exists in Ireland, the Government are responsible for its existence. The same power which put down the Ribbon confederacy could and ought to put down the Orange association. The Orange confederacy is as injurious to the interests of the country and as fatal to its peace, as the other; and every man who really wishes to see all classes in Ireland live together in peace and harmony desires to see the Orange Society put down for ever—crushed to the earth by the force and power of the law. I do believe that the formation of Volunteer corps would promote amity and good feeling among all classes, because all classes would thus be associated for a common object and purpose; and, moreover, those who were banded together for the defence of their country against foreign aggression, would prove the best protectors of order and the public peace at home. However, I do not ask the noble Lord to permit the formation of those corps; I leave it entirely to the noble Lord's sense of responsibility, whether he will permit them or not. But I warn him that his policy, in persistently refusing to permit their formation, is unwise and shortsighted. I know my country well, and I know the feeling which such a policy has created, and is certain to strengthen. Shall I tell the House the real truth? If so, then I must say that, after the statements of the noble Lord and the right hon. Gentleman, if the French were to land on the shores of Ireland to-morrow, a vast proportion of the population would not meet them as foes. Is this, I ask, a feeling which it is wise to encourage? I 437 tell the noble Lord he is adopting an unwise course in proclaiming to the people of Ireland that he will not allow them to adopt means for their own defence, while at the same time he is demanding an enormous additional sum for the coast defences of England. Might it not be a more prudent course for an unarmed people to yield without a bootless struggle to their fate, than to entail upon themselves all the horrors and miseries consequent upon an unequal resistance? The noble Lord who represents his Sovereign at this moment in Ireland, has just been attending a great cattle show, where he mot a large number of persons at dinner, from whom he heard loyal speeches, and with whom he drank loyal toasts in loyal wine; and no doubt that noble Lord will communicate to the Government what he saw and heard as a true representation of the feelings of Ireland. But will that noble Lord venture to rise up in any great assembly of Irishmen, and tell them that they were not fit to be trusted with arms for the defence of their country? Sir, the Government cannot he surprised if their repeated declarations excite a feeling of disaffection in the minds of the great mass of the Irish people. I repeat, I do not advise the noble Lord at the head of the Government to accede to the Motion of my hon. and gallant Friend; that I leave altogether to his own discretion. I do, Sir, however, protest against the insult and mockery of the miserable answer vouchsafed, on the part of his colleagues, by the Secretary for Ireland; which simply means this—that no matter what emergency may arise, no matter what danger may menace, Ireland is to be left in her present unprotected and helpless condition, while all the care, all the solicitude, and all the expenditure—raised, too, from a common empire—are to be devoted by an unwise Government to the protection and defence of the selfish interests of England.
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONSir, I cannot say that either the hon. and gallant Gentleman who made this Motion or the hon. Member who has just sat down has held out any great encouragement to induce us to depart from the line of policy declared by my right hon. Friend. My hon. and gallant Friend, wishing to convince the House that there is no possible chance of danger of any hostile collision between various seetious in Ireland, gave us an anecdote by way of illustration. He said that two Irish gentlemen were 438 travelling together for three weeks upon the most agreeable and confidential footing, but one of them happened one fine morning to make the discovery that the other was an Orangeman, upon which he said, "You an Orangeman! I should never have guessed it. I always thought Orangemen were ready to cut our throats.' "But," said the other, "that is only because we think you are ready to cut our throats." Now, if the two great classes of Irishmen had lived together for three weeks—[Colonel FRENCH: I did not say for three weeks]—well, for any time, upon the same agreeable terms of companionship as the individuals referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend, and thus each class had got their minds disabused of the notion that the other class wanted, metaphorically I hope only, to cut their throats, then the policy of my right hon. Friend might be open to question and the danger be deemed chimerical. But as long as there exists, as my hon. and gallant Friend admits there does exist, a feeling of mutual distrust between the two classes, I do not think it would be useful or advisable to follow the recommendation of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, and place arms in the hands of those who entertain the feelings of jealous animosity which are sufficiently indicated in the anecdote he has narrated to us. Then comes the hon. Member for Dungarvan (Mr. Maguire), and he goes further, for he says that if the French were to land to-morrow, the majority of the Irish nation would meet them not as foes. He went still further; his imagination led him on, and—I believe that it is only his imagination—he said in a few sentences further, the great bulk of the Irish population are disaffected towards the British Government. Those are strange assertions to make with a view to encourage the Government to organize the Irish in a military body. But I do not believe those assertions. The hon. Member says he knows Ireland better than we do, but in this respect at least, I venture to say, we know Ireland better than he does. It often happens that those who are a little removed from an object see it rather more plainly and more distinctly than those who are in immediate contact with it. The hon. Gentleman may be influenced by local party feelings, in which he does not share, but which have come to his knowledge, and he may generalize erroneously upon some particular iustance; but I utterly deny, on 439 the part of the Irish people, the aspersions—for really such they are—which the hon. Member, in his zeal and in the heat of oratorical display, has cast upon them. The hon. Gentleman has also very much misrepresented the state of things in Ireland. He paid a great compliment to the powers of speech of myself and my right hon. Friend when he ascribed the supposed disaffection of the great mass of the population of Ireland to a speech I made about a week ago, and to a speech which my right hon. Friend has made this evening. He says that these speeches have had the wonderful effect of converting a loyal into a disloyal population, and rendering the bulk of the people of Ireland disaffected towards the British Government and the British Throne. The way in which, according to the hon. Gentleman, this feeling has been infused into the minds of Irishmen, is, that it was proved by what I said that in the event of an invasion they were to be left defenceless and unprotected, and that they would be left, therefore, to the choice either of submitting to the evils of a hopeless resistance, or of bowing their necks to the invader. But is Ireland in that unprotected state? In the first place, in time of peace there are 30,000 regular troops there; and, so far from our showing any distrust of the Irish people, there is an organized Militia of 30,000 more. There are, therefore, 60,000 armed and trained men in Ireland at the outset of a war to oppose-to any enemy that may invade its shores. I think that, with 60,000 good troops in Ireland, it is rather a stretch of fancy on the part of the hon. Gentleman to say that Ireland is totally unprotected and incapable of resistance. There would also be 80,000 Militia in England and 20,000 Militia in Scotland, and if there were any prospect of Ireland being the object of attack a considerable portion of them might be sent across the Channel. A force of regular troops might also be sent from England; therefore, the hon. Gentleman is as much mistaken as to the amount of defensive force applicable to the protection of Ireland in the event of invasion, as I am confident he is in his description of the feelings of the Irish people. I can only say that the reasons alleged by my right hon. Friend for declining at present to accept the powers which the hon. and gallant Gentleman is disposed to give are, in my opinion, perfectly sufficient, and I am content to rest 440 upon the arguments he has used as to the decision we should come to on the Motion of mv hon. and gallant Friend.
§ MR. POLLARD-URQUHARTobserved that he could not help expressing his regret at the course taken by the Government. The speech of the right hon. Gentleman was only calculated to excite distrust. What would be thought if the Government would not allow the Volunteer corps to be formed in Oxford or Cambridge because town-and-gown rows sometimes occurred? There was no better reason for preventing the formation of Volunteer corps in Ireland.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he agreed with what had been said by the noble Viscount as to the loyalty of the Irish people; but he could not agree with the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cardwell) in the opinion that, because a squabble broke out now and then, the people of Ireland could not be trusted with the defence of their country. These squabbles wore confined to a few localities. No doubt, the real reason for not arming the people of Ireland was a distrust on the part not only of the present Government, but also of former Governments. But in that case it would be better to speak plainly, and say so. What was the state of Ireland? There was hardly any crime in the country. There might be reasons known to the Government which induced them to oppose the extension of the Volunteer system to Ireland. But in that case the responsibility ought exclusively to rest with them. The noble Viscount said there were 30,000 regular troops in Ireland. But would he assure the people of Ireland that none of those troops should be withdrawn if war broke out? As to the 30,000 Militia, they were not trusted with the custody of their own arms. The Government must be left to explain their distrust and settle their refusal with the people of Ireland.
§ MR. HADFIELDsaid, that the present prosperity of Ireland was a very good guarantee for her loyalty and attachment to this country. It was admitted that this prosperity was almost unprecedented, and he believed that the time had come when the people of Ireland might be trusted. Irishmen might look all round the world and not find a monarch so worthy of their loyalty and attachment as the Sovereign of this country. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman divided the House he would vote with him.
§ LORD ASHLEYsaid, that he felt inclined to support the Motion of the hon. 441 and gallant Gentleman on the good broad principle that if you wanted to make a man worthy of confidence you must put confidence in him. If a husband were uncomfortably jealous, a wife sometimes gave him cause for it, and that was the case in the present instance. He believed that the formation of Volunteer corps would have the effect of modifying and removing the animosity of party feeling in Ireland. He had the honour to hold a commission in the London Irish Volunteer corps. It contained men of every shade of political and religous opinion, but the effect of wearing the Queen's livery was to banish sectarian jealousy, and enable the members of the corps to live in harmony together. Since the Government, however, with their means of information, declined to encourage the Volunteer system in Ireland, he would advise his hon. and gallant Friend not to divide the House. Before next Session the Government would have ample time to reconsider the decision. Let Irish Members tell their countrymen to be "good boys" until Parliament met again, and then, if they behaved themselves, they would be more worthy of confidence by the time Parliament again assembled.
§
Motion made, and Question put,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to extend to Ireland all powers to make rules and regulations for the enrolment and organization of Volunteer Corps which are now by Law applicable to Great Britain.
§ The House divided:—Ayes 30; Noes 86: Majority 56.