HC Deb 30 July 1860 vol 160 cc348-51
MR. HORSMAN

(who had several times attempted to address the House, and had been called to order by Mr. SPEAKER) said, he rose to move the adjournment of the House with a view of putting himself in order. He held that after having given notice of his intention to put a question to the First Minister of the Crown, he was entitled, according to his experience, to ask the question when that Minister appeared in his place. He was therefore under the necessity of interfering with the Motion which the right hon. Gentleman had put from the chair in order to call the attention of the noble Lord and of the House to a subject which he thought ought to be disposed of before the business of the day was proceeded with. On last Friday evening the House was under the impression, up to the time of the adjournment of the debate on the Bill relating to the forces in India, that the question of fortifications would be the first business for to-night, and he rose in order to make an amicable arrangement with the Minister as to the day when that measure should be brought on. He now desired to put it to the noble Lord whether, after the statement he made the other night as to the condition of affairs abroad and of insecurity at home, it was not due to the House, to the public interests, and to the noble Lord himself, that that statement should be followed up by such a course of action as, according to the noble Lord's views, the public safety imperatively demanded. Though there was a general feeling that lately the business of that House had been conducted in a manner not entirely satisfactory, still there was a more general feeling that this indefinite postponement of the question of national defences was treating an important subject with carelessness and levity, and he hoped the House would be no party to such indefinite postponement. In speaking on the matter he stood in this peculiar position, that he was entirely opposed to the Bill which stood first on the Orders of the Day, and was strongly in favour of that measure which had been indefinitely postponed. He believed that the present was the anniversary of the day last year when he had the honour of submitting a Resolution on National Defence, and he was glad to find that after twelvemonths' delay and lengthened inquiry his plan had been adopted by Her Majesty's Ministry. Upon that occasion he was unfortunately left in a very woful minority; and the present result was encouraging in many respects to those who undertook the thankless task of independent action in that House, and he recommended it to the reflection of his Indian friends and those who being in a small minority found themselves overborne by a majority. He thought, with respect to the question of fortifications, the House had a right to know whether some positive day would be fixed for its consideration. The noble Lord had referred to the Report of the Commission, which he had endorsed by his own opinions and comments, and up to the last moment of all questions that could be discussed none seemed to approach in importance that of the national defences. The House had been told, after official inquiry, and upon high official authority, that the sacred soil of this country was in great danger; that the coast might be invaded, the arsenals destroyed, the shipping burnt, and all that was most valuable destroyed. A more alarming statement could not have been made to Parliament, and it was the more extraordinary when the quarter from which it proceeded was considered—

MR. SPEAKER

I beg leave to point out the irregularity which is now being practised on this House. The right hon. Gentleman stated that having given notice to the First Minister of his intention to ask him a question, he thought that when that Minister came to the House it was competent for him to rise and ask the question of which he had given notice. The question referred to by the right hon. Gentleman had already been asked in the House, and. in the absence of the noble Lord the First Minister, had been answered by the Secretary of State for War. The right hon. Gentleman he Secretary of State for War answered the question of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stroud as to what time the question of the fortifications would be brought forward. The First Minister of the Crown afterwards entered the House, and had been in the House for several minutes before the Order of the Day was read. The noble Lord had passed my chair before I called on the last two Notices. After his arrival an unopposed Return had been granted and some other business transacted before I directed the clerk to read the Order of the Day. After the direction was given to read the Order of the Day the right hon. Gentleman rose and said that, for the purpose of putting himself in order in asking his question of the noble Lord the First Minister he proposed to move the adjournment of the House. I do not recollect in the course of the experience which I have had in this chair that after the clerk has proceeded to read the Order of the Day, and after an hon. Gentleman had risen to address the House on the Order, an hon. Gentleman has on any former occasion risen for the purpose of interposing the Motion for Adjournment in order that he might ask a question foreign to the matter before the House. It is true that in this instance the hon. Member in possession gave way for the purpose of allowing the hon. Gentleman to make his Motion, and I admit that this House does permit Motions for Adjournment to be made. It is for the House to consider under what circumstances they should be made; but I call the right hon. Gentleman to order on the present occasion, because, taking advantage of the Motion for Adjournment, he is proceeding to discuss the question of fortifications, which stands tenth on the Orders of the Day, and which by a rule of this House it is not competent for any hon. Member to discuss on the Motion for Adjournment.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

Perhaps I may be allowed to answer my light hon. Friend in a few words on the Motion for Adjournment. I have to express my regret that I was a few minutes later than usual in coining down to the House, but this afternoon I went out of town, and was detained later than I had expected in the transaction of business which was necessary to be done. At the same time, I was in my place, though my right hon. Friend did not see me, before the direction of the Speaker for reading the Order of the Day. With regard to the question itself, I am as anxious as the right hon. Gentleman himself that the question of the fortifica- tions should be resumed as soon as possible; but before it was brought on the House was engaged in the question of the amalgamation of the Indian forces with those of Her Majesty; and this is also a matter which I consider of very great importance to the interests of this country. I am always more glad to have my right hon. Friend as a coadjutor than as an opponent; and as he appears to be in agreement with myself on the question of fortifications let me entreat of him to give his assistance in that way whish at present would be most effectual. Let him use his influence on those with whom he can prevail to discontinue what I must take leave to call an abuse of the Orders of the House, by which an attempt is made to defeat a very important measure by the interposition of every sort of obstruction.

SIR DE LACY EVANS

I rise to order. Is it competent to the noble Lord, in answer to a question, to comment on the conduct of hon. Members?

VISCOCNT PALMERSTON

I believe I am only saying that which any hon. Gentleman would be at liberty to say. In answer to my right hon. Friend, I am unable to come to any decision now; but the subject of the fortifications is one of paramount importance, and I can promise that no time will be lost in affording the House an opportunity of pronouncing an opinion on it.