ADJOURNED DEBATE. (Hansard, 9 July 1860)

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
Sir, as some days have elapsed since the vote of the 25th of June, it may be convenient that I should state to the House the course which I intend to adopt to repair the mischief done by that vote. It will be recollected that the vote was taken upon a Motion of the hon. Baronet the Member for Evesham (Sir Henry Willoughby), proposing to omit from the Report on Salaries the word "compensation." At the mention of that word the House fell into a fit of indignation. It was idle to attempt to tell them, as I did, that the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Bill created no new compensation, that the compensations spoken of in the Report of the Committee were the penalties paid for the sins of a past generation, because they were created in 1831, and that the Bill now before the House did nothing but what was recommended by a Commission presided over by my right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Walpole) as being a measure dictated by ordinary justice. It was of no use to tell the House that. The House was determined to omit the word "compensation," and accordingly that word was struck out of the Report. Now, one object of the Bill for the amendment of the law of bankruptcy and insolvency which I have introduced is to relieve suitors in bankruptcy from an enormous burden of fees which ought never to have been imposed upon them, and part of those fees were created for the purpose of answering these very compensations. The fees which I propose to remit will amount to very nearly £90,000 a year. Undoubtedly, they ought none of them to have been imposed, but when they are to be abolished it becomes necessary to provide from other sources the sums raised by them. The only step which I took to encroach upon any other fund was that recommended by the Commission of throwing those charges which were a legacy from the bad state of things altered in 1831 upon the public, instead of leaving them to be borne by the suitors in Bankruptcy. In consequence of the vote of the House it becomes necessary to alter altogether the arrangements of the Bill. I am, however, able to do so without much inconvenience; and it would not, therefore, have been that cause which induced me at the moment to hesitate as to going on with the Bill. But, Sir, I took that vote as an indication of the temper of the House. I had met with three adverse divisions. I had received 1620 from the opposite side of the House the most generous and the most enlightened support. I am indebted to the hon. and learned Member for Belfast (Sir Hugh Cairns), to the hon. and learned Member for Wallingford (Mr. Malins), the hon. and learned Member for East Suffolk (Sir FitzRoy Kelly) and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Whiteside), for such assistance; but the adverse divisions were all called for and headed by hon. Gentlemen who sit behind me. Nothing would induce me to proceed with the Bill unless there is some confidence in the Government and some confidence in its author. It is a Bill which not twenty Gentlemen in the House have read, and which certainly not twenty understand; therefore, if every hon. Gentleman is to do that which is right in his own eyes, whether he understands the matter or not, it would be of no use to attempt to proceed with the measure. I could undoubtedly meet any ordinary opposition; but the blows which I have received have come from familiar friends in whom I trusted. What probability is there of success? I am opposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Coventry (Mr. Ellice), although I believe there is not a single merchant or manufacturer in that place who has not petitioned in favour of the Bill. The hon. and learned Member for Nottingham (Mr. Mellor) also went out with the majority, yet from the town which he represents I have received the strongest entreaties to go on with the measure; nay, on the part of the whole commercial world there is, as far as I see, with the exception of some matter of detail, the greatest anxiety for the passing of this Bill. We have had two nights, and have got through twenty-four clauses. Unless, therefore, there is a general disposition to put confidence in the Government, to trust to the attention and care which have been used in preparing this Bill, and to place that confidence upon the approbation which has been given to it by the public, who are infinitely more concerned in it, and have been infinitely more diligent in its study than have hon. Members of this House, I must give up the attempt to pass it as a hopeless task. In the hope that such confidence will be extended, and that we shall proceed with a desire to pass it, I am willing to go on with the Bill.
The arrangement which I propose in order to remedy the mischief which the hon. Baronet somewhat unconsciously did 1621 is this—I propose to leave the additional salaries of the County Court Judges, if the House shall think fit to pass them, charged upon the Consolidated Fund, but I also propose to give to that fund a very large compensation for that small additional charge. The House will recollect that the County Court Judges have been treated with some little inequality—I may say with some degree of unfairness. They are divided into three classes; some receive £1,500 a year, another small class receives £1,350, and another £1,200. Now, it being the object of the Bankruptcy Bill to give additional labour in bankruptcy to these Judges, and especially to those who receive only £1,200 a year, I propose to make the salaries of all County Court Judges £1,500 a year. In return for this it has been felt that the fees of the County Courts would well bear some augmentation. At present 10d. in the pound only is paid for each plaint; it is proposed to increase that to 1s. At present nothing is paid for the service of a summons, and in consequences summonses are frequently taken out vexatiously. It is proposed to impose a small charge upon the service of a summons, and so numerous are these summonses that this trifling additional impost, which has been recommended by fifty County Court Judges out of fifty-seven, will bring into the Consolidated Fund about £34,000 a year, the charge which I propose to throw upon it amounting to only £10,500. If, therefore, that be done which the House is aware depends upon the Treasury and the Lord Chancellor, the Consolidated Fund, instead of being a loser, will, in fact, be a considerable gainer. The other measure which I shall ask the House to adopt is this—I shall leave the compensations and retiring annuities created by the Act of 1831 charged where they now are. I propose that a statement of accounts shall be laid before Parliament on the 1st of March every year, and that a vote for any deficiency which may exist, never exceeding the amount of compensations and retiring allowances, shall be taken on the 1st of April. In that way I expect to enable the Court of Bankruptcy to diminish its fees to the amount of about £90,000 per annum. Those fees may be described in few words. There are stamp duties now paid to the amount of £26,000 a year; I propose to reduce them to about £5,000. There is a heavy percentage paid upon estates in bankruptcy, which, upon an 1622 average of seven or eight years, amounts to about £38,000. I propose to take that away altogether, because the practical effect of its continuance would be to keep very large estates out of the court. In addition, there are large and oppressive percentages received by the official assignees; they amounted last year to nearly £51,000. I propose to abolish these altogether. Of course in making these large reductions I reckon upon a considerable increase to the income of the court, which I expect will be made by bringing all trust deeds and deeds of composition within the reach of the law of bankruptcy. It will be recollected that the great feature of the present Bill is to make the law of bankruptcy part of the ordinary law of debtor and creditor. As the matter now stands you cannot have the aid of the law of bankruptcy without not only going into the court, but administering the whole of the estate in the Court. It frequently happens, however, that you want the assistance of the law of bankruptcy for a particular purpose only. I propose to give that benefit to all trustees, creditors, and parties to deeds of composition upon their paying a very inconsiderable stamp duty, and registering the deeds in the Court of Bankruptcy. At present a great part of the insolvency business is conducted in a very irregular manner. All insolvencies of any magnitude are made the subject of private arrangement, and there is no record kept of the state of solvency or insolvency among non-traders. Under the improved system which I propose there will be a perfect record. According to the best returns trust deeds and deeds of composition amount to between 8,000 and 9,000 per annum. In future they may not exceed 6,000, and I propose to derive from them, in the shape of a graduated stamp, a sum amounting to about £60,000. In return for that small payment, they will get the whole benefit of the law of bankruptcy; they will enjoy the advantage of acting under the direction of the court, and, upon the whole, I have no doubt that the deficiency which I should otherwise have in my income will be amply provided for. I trust, therefore, that we may now go on with the Bill, and do what we can to rescue this great mercantile nation from a reproach which it bears, I am sorry to say, in marked contrast to other nations—that, while it is the greatest trading country in the world, its law of bank- 1623 ruptcy and insolvency is in a most imperfect and even disgraceful condition. The hon. and learned Gentleman concluded by moving that the first Resolution, as amended, be agreed to.

§ SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY
denied that the Amendment he proposed and carried on a former occasion involved any "mischief" whatever. It simply affirmed the principle that it was not desirable to connect Amendments of the law with immense charges upon the Consolidated Fund. He had no wish, for his part, to oppose the Amendment of the law now proposed by the hon. and learned Attorney General, though he thought a Bill containing 540 clauses was a rather dangerous sort of Amendment, likely to afford considerable employment to gentlemen of the long robe. It appeared to him that the Attorney General would derive from the compensation account, which amounted to a very large sum, and from the fees which he proposed to establish under the present Bill, a sum amply sufficient to cover all charges.

§ MR. E. P. BOUVERIE
remarked, that the House ought to be much obliged to the hon. Baronet opposite for having brought forward his Amendment. It was quite clear that the fees in the Bankruptcy Court ought to be charged with the compensations, and if it turned out in the long run that some small balance was not provided for, then it would be for the House to consider whether it would make up the deficiency. That was a better course than placing a fixed charge on the Consolidated Fund. He wished entirely to disclaim that any Member on that side of the House had been moved by a factious feeling in the course they had taken; but it was not reasonable to expect that a Bill containing 540 clauses should be taken on the ipse dixit of any person, however distinguished.

§ MR. BARROW
said, the administration of the law had been loaded from time to time with useless sinecures to a most disgraceful extent, and upon a former occasion he had thought it his duty to protest against the transfer of a sinecure of that description from the fee fund of the Court of Bankruptcy to the taxpayers of the country. He doubted very much whether it was desirable to increase the tax on the poor suitors of the County Courts in order to relieve the rich suitors of the Bankruptcy Court, and he was very much disposed to vote against that portion of the 1624 measure which proposed to draw into a sort of central vortex a vast number of transactions which parties now arranged in private in order to save the expense of the law courts.

MR. HENLEY
said, that though he was one of the unfortunate individuals who voted against the scheme of compensation which had been proposed by the Government, he was not anxious to escape the censure which the hon. and learned Attorney General had distributed. He thought, when the comprehensiveness of the scheme of the hon. and learned Gentleman was considered, and that it might include every one, from the Archbishop of Canterbury to the poorest curate, and from the highest Duke to the dweller under the poorest roof, the Attorney General need not doubt that he should get plenty of fish into his net; and, if that were so, he thought it was rather too much to expect that everybody should take the clauses of this Bill for granted. The Bill would affect a very great number of people, perhaps without one in ten of them knowing how they might be brought under its provisions. The hon. and learned Gentleman ought to be prepared, therefore, to expect some degree of opposition. Any person who had incurred encumbrances for the last twenty years might find himself drawn in under this Bill, and might have to pay additional interest in time of pressure, to escape from the effect of its provisions. Whether the scheme would work well, time alone would show; but, at any rate, a sufficient number of persons might be brought within its operation.

§ MR. W. WILLIAMS
said, that in his original proposition the hon. and learned Gentleman had calculated far too much upon the ignorance of the House; and the House had acted most commendably in protecting the pockets of the public.