§ MR. BUTLERsaid, he wished to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department with respect to the lamentable proceedings which had taken place in the parish church of St. George's-in-the-East. The Question he had to ask of the right hon. Gentleman was, Whether Her Majesty's Government intended to introduce any measure for the relief of parishioners, in cases similar to 264 that which had arisen in the parish of St. George's-in-the East? and whether he was taking, or intending to take, any steps for the purpose of enabling the parishioners in that unfortunate district to attend Divine service in their own parish church?
SIR GEORGE LEWISPerhaps the House may wish to know precisely the steps that have been taken with regard to the church of St. George's-in-the-East. That church was closed for Divine service for some time during the summer and autumn. Upon its re-opening application was made by the Rev. Bryan King, the clergyman, to myself and Sir Richard Mayne for protection, in the event of any disturbances taking place within the church. After a full consideration of the law on the subject, I found that there were considerable difficulties in the way of the interference of a police-constable in the case of any noise or disturbance within a church, not amounting to a breach of the peace. The law of brawling in a house of prayer is altogether inapplicable to such cases, and, being merely a remedy to be enforced by a suit in the Ecclesiastical Court, arms the police with no authority whatever. There are other modes, defined by the Act of Uniformity, whereby any person who disturbs a church can he summoned before a magistrate; but neither does that enable a police constable to interfere summarily in the matter. After full consideration we found that there was an Act of Philip and Mary more or less applicable to the subject; but I must admit there is considerable difficulty in interpreting the statute law in regard to this class of offences, because it is one, fortunately, which has been so extremely rare that it has not of late years been made the subject of distinct enactment. Under these circumstances, after a conference with the clergyman and churchwardens, I agreed to authorize the stationing of a body of police, in their uniform, inside the church during Divine service, and the churchwardens undertook to assign places to them. The police, accordingly, attended on successive Sundays, and to a certain extentsuc-ceeded in preventing any open disturbance or breach of order during the services. At the same time, I am bound to admit that, owing to the state of the law, very scandalous interruptions of Divine worship took place, notwithstanding the presence of the police. At the end of the year Sir Richard Mayne represented to me that it was impossible permanently to continue the system of guarding any of the metropolitan churches 265 by a body of police, and that at the beginning of the new year some change in the practice should take place. I therefore sanctioned the withdrawal of the police, who had been stationed in the church for six successive Sundays. I regret to say that the presence of the police has had no lasting effect, and that on their withdrawal the disturbances have been greater than previously. Yesterday, after the termination of the evening service, which is one in which certain rites and ceremonies are introduced by the Rev. Bryan King, which appear to be very distasteful to the parishioners, a very decided exhibition of disapprobation took place, which ended in a riot and tumult. I should have stated that when the police were withdrawn from the interior of the church, a large body of them were constantly stationed ill the vicinity during Divine service, so as to be within call in the event of any open breach of the peace. As soon, therefore, as the riot broke out yesterday evening, intelligence was conveyed to the Inspector, who at once entered the church with a strong force of police, put an end to the riot, and cleared the church; and I believe that no further breach of the peace took place. I have to-day had an interview with Sir Richard Mayne, who has learned from Mr. Bryan King the plan which that gentleman proposes for the maintenance of order on Sunday next. That plan has been acceded to, and is that a body of police should be stationed outside of the church, and that persons who appear to be entering it with the intention and design previously conceived of creating a disturbance during Divine worship, should not be admitted into the church. I confess I am not aware of any other means of preventing a breach of the peace during the services; and I think the House must sec that these interruptions are, to say the least, of a most unseemly and scandalous nature. I make no remarks upon the religious opinions or sentiments which may be involved in the controversy. I look at the question simply as one concerning the maintenance of the public peace; and I conceive I should be wanting in my duty if I did not take some steps to prevent the recurrence of such disturbances as occurred yesterday at the evening service. In reply to the question of the hon. Member, I have to say that it is not the intention of the Government at present to introduce any measure with the view of meeting such cases as that of St. Georgo's-in-the-East; 266 but we will, of course, be quite ready to Consider any measure which any Gentleman may think appropriate to the subject. I may state thus much—that it appears to me that no remedy would be effectual in this or similar cases which merely provided for the removal of the clergyman on the ground of heresy. I do not understand that any of the doctrines promulgated by the Rev. Bryan King or any of his curates are heretical or contrary to the Articles or canons of the Church of England. What is objected to is the ceremonial which he has introduced, upon his own discretion, in the Divine service as performed in his own church; and it is not denied that an incumbent has a discretion in such matters. If the Legislature thought fit to deprive the incumbent of all discretion, and to give the Bishop the absolute power of prescribing rites and ceremonies which are in themselves indifferent and not defined by the Articles of the Church, and if the incumbent were obliged to yield to such authority, I think that would afford, practically, a complete remedy for such cases; because it seems to me very improbable that the unfortunate want of discretion and judgment that appears to distinguish some of our parochial clergymen, would be found upon the Episcopal Bench; and therefore I should look with great confidence to the success of a remedy which was left to the discretion of the Bishops. I may add that, personally, I am of opinion that great advantage might arise if power were given to the Crown by an order in council, upon proper ecclesiastical advice, to modify the rubrics of the Common Prayer-book. That is a subject, however, which is much litigated at the present moment, and which requires great consideration. In saying so, therefore, I merely express my own individual opinion, on which I have no intention of acting, and which I mention only as part of the difficulties of this question.
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MR. DANBY SEYMOUR moved the adjournment of the House, and expressed his opinion that the disturbances yesterday at St. Georges-in-the-East, and similar disturbances, no less important, which bad taken place in other parishes in England, were of a more serious character than the right hon. Baronet seemed to suppose. He then read the following passage from the account of the riot in The Times:—
Unhappily, notorious as this parish has become in consequence of the religious differences which prevail, and serious as have been the distur-
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bances which have taken place, everything which has previously occurred sinks into insignificance when compared with the terrible scene which was witnessed there last night. At the evening service it was such as it would be impossible for any language adequately to describe. The conduct of the congregation was, to use the only phrase at all applicable to it, devilish.' A considerable amount of Church furniture has been destroyed, the cushions in the galleries were torn up and thrown into the body of the Church, Bibles and Prayer-books flew about in all directions, and many of the altar decorations have been injured.
§ He was sorry that, with such a state of things existing, the Government did not think proper to bring in some Bill by way of remedy. But as he was at present advised, such a Bill would be introduced. He hoped, unless the Government took it out of his hands, to be able himself to introduce a measure which, if it did not pass both Houses, might raise discussions which would prevent incumbents bringing about such an unfortunate state of things in their parishes as had been witnessed in St. Georges-in-the-East.
§ MR. HADFIELDsaid, he rose to second the Motion. The people of England had borne this nuisance long enough. The fact of Protestant clergymen receiving their income from Protestant sources, and having in their hearts inclinations towards the Church of Rome, had tried the public patience long enough. This was a very grave question. It affected more than members of the Church of England, because, if some remedy were not devised, the people of England would take the law into their own hands; and then the clergy would hear of it in a form not very agreeable to themselves. The Nonconformists agreed in doctrine more than the members of the Church of England; there was not, in fact, more dissension between the different Nonconformist bodies than existed in the Church of England. Was there a member of the Church of Scotland who was not interested in the question? It was therefore high time that the Government took the matter into their own hands. If the Church of England was so crazy and so infirm that if a single brick were taken out of the edifice the whole would come down? If that were the state of the Church, the sooner the people of England knew it the better. He thought the Government had too long trifled with this subject. In former times people had made fortunes and been enobled by pandering to Church power; but it would be a bad speculation nowadays to attempt to make political capital 268 out of the Establishment. But public opinion was rising—it had risen, and at present the Nonconformists outnumbered the members of the Church of England. ["No, no."] He said Yes. Such was the dissatisfaction which was felt with the Church of England, that, as was proved on Census Sunday, the number of Nonconformist worshippers was greater than those belonging to the Church. Look at the number of members of the Church compared with the population of the United Kingdom—what was their proportion? Not one-third of the whole country. But without counting numbers, he believed that the Protestant feeling of the country was sound, and every attempt to carry them over the line, and land them in the Church of Rome, he was confident, would fail. Hon. Gentlemen opposite might try to bolster up the Church as much as possible, but they would fail in so doing unless by a reform of the Church of England such as no Government had yet ventured to attempt.
§ Motion made, and Question "That this House do now adjourn" put, and negatived.