HC Deb 26 January 1860 vol 156 cc159-60

SIR CHARLES NAPIER moved for the following Returns:— Returns of the number of Men who entered under the Bounty Proclamation, and of the number who have since deserted; distinguishing those who entered under the Bounty, and those who did not so enter: Of the total number of Men who deserted during the year immediately preceding the time of the Proclamation: Of the number of Men who have enrolled themselves in the Royal Naval Reserve Corps. Of the number of Men now serving who have completed ten and fifteen years' service, distinguishing each. And, of the number of Men not serving, who receive the short service pension; and the number of men not serving who are entitled to the short service pension, but who have not claimed it. He had been told that these returns would be objected to on the score of difficulty and expense. He was unwilling to incur unnecessary expense, but he thought the returns he asked for were of the very highest importance to the interests of the country, for when the House had voted large sums of money for a particular purpose, they ought to know how far the money had effected the object in view. The Admiralty cost the country £130,000 a year, and there ought to he no difficulty in furnishing the returns.

LORD CLARENCE PAGET

hoped his gallant Friend would not persist with his Motion. There was no desire whatever to conceal any of the facts; but to procure some of these returns would involve considerable expense to the public, and even then he did not think they would effect the object his gallant Friend had in view. With regard to the number of men who had entered under the bounty proclamation, and of the number who had since deserted, the total was not difficult to furnish; but to distinguish those who had entered under the bounty and those who did not would involve the sending out to all the different stations, to China, the Pacific, &c., for the purpose of examining the several ships' books. As to the number of men who had deserted during the year immediately preceding the time of the proclamation, that there would be no difficulty in giving. As to the number of men who had enrolled themselves in the Royal Naval Reserve Corps, that he understood his gallant Friend was ready to defer. As to the number of men now serving who have completed ten and fifteen years' service, distinguishing each, that too would involve the sending out to foreign stations; but with regard to the number of men not serving, who receive the short service pension, that he should be happy to furnish his gallant Friend. The last return asked for was the number of men not serving who are entitled to the short service pension, but have not claimed it. Now, it was impossible to state that, because there was no record whatever. Nothing was known about these men. They had left the service and could not claim the pension. He would take that opportunity of stating that he was sure the object of his gallant Friend was the public good; but he could have little notion of the expense to which he put the country by these returns. In June, 1858, the gallant Admiral's returns in reference to deserters caused the employment of no less than six clerks for six months, at a cost to the country of £500.

SIR CHARLES NAPIER

said, that every ship on a foreign station sent home two monthly books, which would give the information he sought. Unless the House knew how many men had deserted after receiving the bounty how would they be in a position to ascertain how the navy was to be manned? He wanted to know whether the Admiralty had used proper means to apprehend and punish these deserters. In his opinion no punishment, not even flogging, was too severe for men who accepted the Queen's bounty of £10 and a suit of clothes for the purpose of deserting. He doubted whether the Admiralty had taken proper steps to bring these men to condign punishment. He had no objection to give up a portion of the returns.

Motion put, and negatived.