HC Deb 16 August 1860 vol 160 cc1355-69

Order for Committee (Supply) read.

House in Committee.

MR. MASSEY

in the Chair.

(1.) £80,850 British Museum.

MR. WALPOLE

said, he rose to move the Vote for the British Museum. In one respect the Vote was made up in a different form from that of former years. The buildings and fittings of the establishment used to form a separate Vote; but this year the whole was taken under one Vote, and he might state that, as compared with last year, there was a reduction of £2,000, while in the building estimate there was a saving of £147. There had been three valuable collections added to the Museum in the course of the year. One of these was a collection of valuable pictures purchased at Lord North wick's sale. The second was some valuable manuscripts of the Earl of Lauderdale, of the time of Charles II.; and the third was a large mineralogical collection, purchased on the recommendation of Professor Owen. A very valuable present of coins and medals, between 2,000 and 3,000 in number, had also been given to the Museum in the course of the year. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the Vote.

MR. SPOONER

expressed a hope that the British Museum might soon be rendered self-supporting by a small charge for admission on certain evenings. A feeling prevailed in the country that the Museum was kept up for the advantage of Members of Parliament.

MR. DANBY SEYMOUR

suggested, that in the summer months the Museum should be opened earlier, so that professional men might have an opportunity of visiting it for special objects on their way to their places of business. With regard to the working classes, the Museum should he more utilized by being opened at hours more convenient for them.

MR. EDWIN JAMES

said, he observed with regret that the attendance of the public at the British Museum had fallen off, and he thought something should be done to encourage the working classes to visit an institution so well calculated to instruct and humanize them. In 1859, the attendance at the Museum was 517,895, as against 621,624 in the previous year, making a falling off of nearly 100,000 persons. The truth was that the working classes were virtually debarred from the Museum, as they had only the evenings and Sunday to devote to other purposes than those of labour. He hoped that steps would be taken to open the Museum in the evenings, so that the working classes might have opportunities of attending it.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, it was lamentable to see the way in which accommodation for the working classes was provided at our public exhibitions. At the British Museum, the time for visiting was from ten till four in winter, and in summer from ten till six. Those were hours at which it was impossible for the working classes to attend, and he therefore thought facilities should be given for their visiting the Museum in the evening. The sum paid for the establishment was immense.

MR. GREGSON

said, he thought a small payment might be asked for admission to the Museum in the evening, which would pay the additional expense that might be incurred.

MR. LONGFIELD

called attention to the enormous expenses under the head of salaries—upwards of £30,000—and observed that these expenses generally ought not to be borne by the nation.

MR. WALPOLE

said, the falling off in the number of visitors in 1859, as compared with 1857, was accounted for by the fact that in May, 1857, there was an influx of visitors to the number of 147,000, as compared with the average of 40,000, owing to the opening of the new reading-room. Since the new arrangements made for the convenience of students in the reading room there had been a larger and more regular attendance, and the arrangements gave universal satisfaction. Indeed, the trustees were exceedingly anxious to do all in their power to promote the interests of art and literature among all classes. There were only two trustees besides himself present—the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Attorney General—and he was sure that they would agree with him in the sentiment he was about to express. It was his duty to collect the suggestions that were made in that House when the Estimate was brought forward, and to lay those suggestions before the trustees. He would, of course, submit to the trustees the representations that had now been made with reference to providing greater facilities for the attendance of the working classes at the Museum, and he had no doubt that in the course of the autumn their attention would be directed to the subject, with the view, if possible, of meeting the views of the Committee.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he believed that he also spoke for his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General when he said he was glad that the right hon. Gentleman had given a favourable reception to the important suggestions that had been made. He believed there would be no practical obstacle in the way of carrying out the proposals which they had heard. It was reasonable that a national institution like the British Museum—for it was not a merely local institution—should be supported by the public. The advantages enjoyed at that establishment, and which could be enjoyed with a degree of luxury that few gentlemen could command at their own homes, were not for Londoners only. They were for the whole British nation, and it was impossible, therefore, to give the institution a merely local character. He begged to remind his hon. Friend, who spoke of the great expense connected with the officers of the establishment, that hitherto the Government had been under the necessity of checking the tendency of Members of that House to extend rather than lower the expenditure to which he refer- red. The Committee had that day heard a gentleman complain of the salaries paid at the British Museum as being too large; but for years past they had been accustomed to hear of their being too small.

MR. AYRTON

complained, that while every effort was made to induce visitors to go to see what had been called the toy establishment at Kensington, nothing was done to induce the public to resort to the British Museum, which stood so conveniently in the centre of London. It was remarkable, too, that one-half of the whole number who visited the establishment at Kensington went there in the evening. No practical objection could be stated against opening the British Museum in the evening, except that it would cost money. Thousands were expended in keeping up the trumpery collection at Kensington, while little or nothing was done for that great national establishment the British Museum. A great evil was that all our museums and collections of different kinds were not under one directing head. They were all placed under separate trustees and managers, and hence there was no unity in their management, while the different collections were kept separate from each other. While on the subject he could not help referring to Burlington House, on which £150,000 had been spent, but which was loft unoccupied except by the London University, that had almost no material existence, and by the Royal Society, which might be considered as an effete body. They had been told the other day that the Lord Privy Seal had nothing to do. Why should he not be made available as a public officer to take charge of all these works and collections, instead of leaving them, as now, to be taken care of by persons who drew large salaries but were almost entirely irresponsible? He hoped that some measure would speedily be taken to put all the Departments of Art and Science on a proper footing.

MR. BUTT

said, the salaries of the officers of the British Museum were upon a scale far inferior to those employed in other Government offices, while they had qualifications far higher than were required in other public departments. The officers of the British Museum presented a memorial to the trustees for an advance of salary, which he believed was supported by the noble Member for the City (Lord John Russell), but it was not successful.

MR. CONINGHAM

contended that the officials at the British Museum were entitled to better remuneration than they now enjoyed. The clerks in the public offices had only ordinary duties to perform, but these gentlemen, before they could fill the situations they held, must have a scientific education. There were men in the British Museum who had been there for twenty years, and had not yet reached the maximum salary of £300 a year. With regard to the interests of the Museum generally, he hoped it would be maintained in its integrity on its existing site. He strongly objected to the attempt which had been made to remove the Natural History Department to Kensington. There was evidence given before the Committee that an enormous expenditure would be incurred if that attempt were carried out.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

observed that the reference he had made historically to what took place in former years with regard to the salaries of the officers of the Museum might almost be regarded as prophetic; for again the Committee had heard a renewal of the demand that used to be so frequently made for an advance in the salaries of those officers. They had heard hon. Gentlemen who were great advocates of retrenchment, advocate a wholesale advancement of salaries, though they knew that those salaries had been revised within the last few years, and fixed on what was believed to be a fair and equitable footing. To compare the salaries given in the British Museum with those in the public offices was fallacious and unsatisfactory, because they had Do system of classification that would enable them to bring out in a simple form the respective duties, and what ought to be the salaries of each. A clerk in a public office was hard at work, or supposed to be, all his official hours, but that was not the case with the officers of the British Museum, whose duties were of a much less exhausting character. He did not say this mode of viewing the matter settled the controversy, but it was enough to show that the comparison between the two classes of officers was superficial, and therefore delusive. It was only by a searching inquiry that the comparative claims of the two could be decided upon and determined. He doubted whether there was one of the officials in the British Museum who was not at that moment receiving a larger salary than was promised him when he accepted his office, and the receipt of which induced him to take it. The hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) alluded to the purchase of Burlington House. He regretted as much as the hon. Member could do, that such long periods should elapse before any conclusion could be arrived at as to the disposal of buildings of that kind, the price of which had been paid, and which entailed a large annual charge for interest. He had no hesitation in saying that this and other circumstances of a like kind were entirely owing to the lamentable and deplorable state of our whole arrangement with regard to the management of our public works. Vacillation, uncertainty, costliness, extravagance, meanness, and all the conflicting vices that could be enumerated were united in our present system. There was a total want of authority to direct and guide. When anything was to be done they had to go from department to department—from the Executive to the House of Commons, from the House of Commons to a Committee, from a Committee to a Commission, and from a Commission back to a Committee—so that years passed away, the public were disappointed, and the money of the country was wasted. He believed such were the evils of the system, that nothing short of a revolutionary reform would ever be sufficient to rectify it.

MR. CONINGHAM

defended himself from the insinuation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he was acting in the present instance in a way inconsistent with his professions in favour of retrenchment and economy.

MR. DANBY SEYMOUR

called attention to the payments for photography of £2,000 and;£900, at the British Museum and South Kensington Museum. The vacillation which the right hon. Gentleman spoke of was entirely the fault of the Government. Had a proper plan been brought before the House, the matter would long ago have been settled.

MR. BUTT

said, he thought that the duties of the officers of the British Museum were much more arduous than those of the clerks in the public departments, of whom it had been said that their chief employment consisted of reading newspapers and pamphlets provided for them at the public expense.

MR. WALPOLE

said, he would give no opinion as to the salaries of the officers of the British Museum. Two years ago those salaries were revised by the trustees, with the assistance of the Treasury, and he be- lieved no complaint was made of the settlement then made as to salaries. At that time the officers of the Museum were not entitled to superannuation allowances. In a letter which he (Mr. Walpole) wrote to the Treasury he strongly recommended that they should receive superannuation allowances, and that an increased vacation should he given. The Treasury acceded to those suggestions, and both had been granted. He wished to give no opinion on the question of raising the salaries; but he would venture to say, in justification of his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that while it might be quite right for individual Members to press the case of the officers, if they thought them entitled to higher salary, it was, at the same time, the duty of the House to protect the public expenditure. The salaries should he estimated with a proper regard to the services to be performed, and the question of raising those salaries ought not to be raised merely in consequence of individual pressure on the individual Members of that House.

MR. EDWIN JAMES

said, he hoped good results would follow from the manly and straightforward speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He had stated that the cause of so much of the mismanagement and expenditure complained of was the vacillation and extravagance of the system under which our public works were conducted. He (Mr. James) would suggest to him that a great deal of the evil he spoke of arose from so important a department as that of the Board of Works being regarded as a mere family appanage, and the fact that the First Commissioner of Works was exposed to all sorts of influences. If a man of strong will and ability were uniformly appointed to that office—one who would not be unduly influenced by suggestions made from certain quarters—much of the evil would be avoided. The Minister of Works held a most important office, and he ought to be a man not under the influence of mere family patronage.

MR. CONINGHAM

said, he should be glad to see the Vote for the National Gallery reduced.

MR. M'CANN

said, that these Votes had doubled in amount since he had been a Member of the House. There was always some one to get up and propose an increase of salary.

MR. PEACOCKE

said, he thought the hon. and learned Member for Marylebone was not warranted in the attack he had made on the First Commissioner of Works. The hon. and learned Gentleman spoke of the office being a family appanage, but he seemed to forget that it was at one time held by Lord Llanover, when he represented the large and important constituency now represented by himself. The office was also held by Sir William Moles-worth, who likewise represented a large and important Metropolitan constituency; and both of those Gentlemen had the fall confidence of their constituents.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

observed, that he did not understand that any attack was made by the hon. and learned Member for Marylebone on his right hon. Friend, who now held the office of First Commissioner of Works. It would be most unfair to make the present holder of that office responsible for the existing state of our arrangements as to the British Museum, the National Gallery, Burlington House, and the disposal of the Kensington estate. Nothing could be more unjust than to lay the general inefficiency of our system with regard to such works at the door of the present head of the Board of Works, or even at the door of a series of his predecessors.

MR. AYRTON

said, he imagined that the past and present Ministers of Public Works were subject to so many importunities and influences, that they had no power or will of their own. The department was too much subjected to others. He hoped that the Government would place it on a more independent footing, and invest it with real responsibility.

MR. EDWIN JAMES

disclaimed having made any attack on the First Commissioner of Works. He merely wished to say that it was an office of great importance, and should be uniformly held by a person of great ability and skill, and who would not be under undue influences.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

stated that the officers of the British Museum were appointed by three ex-officio members of the Commission—the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Lord Chancellor, and the Speaker.

Vote agreed to, as was also

(2), £4,300 Bermudas.

(3.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £6,628, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge of the Ecclesiastical Establishment of the British North American Provinces, to the 31st day of March, 1861.

MR. HADFIELD

objected to the item of £2,363 for Missionaries of the Incorporated Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Canada, and should move the entire rejection of the Vote. He understood that the Prince of Wales's visit would cost Canada £100,000; and yet this country was asked to Vote £6,628 to send Missionaries to persons who could afford to spend this amount. Since the Clergy Reserves in Canada had been abolished, the Church had been supported much more liberally; and it was an insult to that enlightened Colony to vote them a paltry £6,000 for the purpose. He did not believe they wanted it.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

said, that if this Vote were withdrawn the clergy would be left entirely to their congregations, which the Government could not allow. This was a diminishing grant, which would expire with the lives of the recipients. Some years ago it was upwards of £30,000.

Motion made, and Question, That the item of £2,363, to Foreign Missionaries of the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel, be omitted from the proposed Vote.

Put, and negatived.

Vote agreed to, as was also

(4.) £1,600 Indian Department (Canada).

(5.) £15,000, British Columbia.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, that the colony was producing little or no revenue, and he wished to know how long this expenditure was to go on.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

said, he was not prepared to state exactly what the revenue was; the returns were not so accurate as they might be. But in 1859 he believed the revenue was about £50,000. A considerable expense was unavoidable in the establishment of a colony of this kind. A large sum had been spent in sending out a corps of Engineers, but they had not answered expectations.

MR. MALINS

expressed his belief that the colony would soon become a very valuable one. The Surveyor General of that colony, now in England, could give every information that was desired. He had no doubt that the colony would make the best return for the outlay upon it of any of the British Colonies.

MR. DANBY SEYMOUE

asked, Whether anything was being done towards the formation of a road from Red River to British Columbia, and whether postal communication was likely soon to be established?

MR. MALINS

said, he was assured by the Surveyor that a road might be made over the Rocky Mountains for a very trifling sum. The seat of Government was in Vancouver's Island, and they ought not to attempt to force emigrants to settle on the mainland, which was comparatively unpopulated.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

wished to know what power the Governor of British Columbia had of drawing upon the British Treasury?

MR. LAING

said, that if a Governor drew to an unlimited amount, they would refuse acceptance of his bills, but a discretion must be used as to accepting drafts in excess of the amount voted by Parliament. An unforeseen demand, however, sometimes arose, as on the occasion of a vessel laden with stores for the Colonies being consumed by fire.

MR. HENLEY

asked, whether there was any expectation that the current expenses incurred in the colony would have to be met by bills on this country during the present year?

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

said, it was not expected that it would be necessary to draw any Bills, and therefore no such item was inserted in the Votes. It was hoped that the colony would shortly be able to pay its own way. He might add that roads were in course of formation in the colony, and negotiations were going on for opening out its capabilities. Instructions had been sent out to reduce the price of land to the same rate as prevailed in America. There was also a valuable and almost unlimited supply of coal in Vancouver's Island, which had already been worked.

Vote agreed to.

(6.) Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding£24,728, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge of the Salaries of the Governors, Lieutenant Governors, and others in the West Indies, and certain other Colonies, to the 31st day of March, 1861.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

observed, that it was high time these Governors were paid by the Colonies themselves. There was a sum of £3,500 for the Governor of Jamaica. Jamaica used to pay its own Governor, but was relieved from that expense on account of the distress into which the island fell. It was now time that we should cease to pay these salaries. He objected also to the salaries of the Secretaries of the Governor of the Windward Islands. He moved that the Vote be reduced by £3,500, the salary of the Governor of Jamaica.

MR. CAVE

supported the Vote, and observed that Jamaica was now in a worse position than any of the other islands. Besides, the faith of this country was pledged to this arrangement, in consideration of certain changes in the Constitution submitted to by the Colonial Legislature.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

admitted that it was anomalous for this country to pay the Governors of colonies, but the West Indies were in a very exceptional condition, in consequence of the distress which had long prevailed there. An arrangement had been made by which a debt due to this country from Jamaica was to be commuted into an annual payment; and he believed that after the present Governor, such a Vote as that before the Committee could not be asked for.

Motion made, and Question, That the item of £3,500, for the Salary of the Governor of Jamaica, be omitted from the proposed Vote.

Put, and negatived.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(7.) £18,000, Stipendiary Justices (West India Colonies and Mauritius).

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, there were twelve magistrates in Jamaica, in aid of whom this country was taxed to the amount of £5,850. He had called attention to this expenditure for several years; but there appeared to be no reduction going on.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

said, that this also was an expiring Vote, while it was desirable that the magistrates should be independent of local influence.

SIR JAMES GRAHAM

said, he understood that there was an unexpended balance on this Vote of £18,000; and if so, they ought to vote nothing at all.

MR. LAING

said, there were salaries coming duo on the 31st of March, the date of the balance, which had probably been paid out of the amount in hand.

Vote agreed, to; as were also the following Votes:—

(8.) £10,230, Civil Establishments (Western Coast of Africa).

(9.) £6,273, St. Helena.

(10.) £960, Heligoland.

(11.) £4,067, Falkland Islands.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

objected to the sum as monstrous, considering the number of persons resident on the islands.

MR. CHILDERS

pointed out the im- portance of the Falkland Islands to our homeward-bound shipping from India, China, and Australia, and also as a place for a convict establishment.

Vote agreed to.

(12.) £5,155, Labuan.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

said, there had been some intention of abandoning the settlement; but an experiment was about to be made, under very favourable circumstances, for the purpose of raising coal there; and it was believed that a very valuable supply would be obtained. Were this done, a large royalty would be derived from the coal.

Vote agreed to.

(13.) £11,472, Emigration Board.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

asked an explanation as to the Staff of the Board.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

said, there had been two Commissioners, but one had been transferred to the Colonial Office, and his place had not been filled up. A secretary had undertaken the duties, with a small addition of £200 to his salary; so that there was in reality a saving of £800 a year.

MR. NEWDEGATE

referred to the increasing scarcity of agricultural labour in this country, and to the accumulation of convicts at home at a great expense. He hoped that the Government would do something to remedy these evils, and try whether convicts might not be sent to some of the colonies, where they might recover their character.

MR. VANCE

said, he thought a great many females might be sent to the Colonies from the workhouses of this country. They were sure to be employed in the Colonies as servants.

MR. CHILDERS

said, that the female emigrants sent out from workhouses in 1857 had been most unsatisfactory to the colony of South Australia; so much so that the colony had ceased to use the agency of the Board, in procuring female emigrants. The Colonies to which convicts had been formerly sent would no longer receive them; and it would be more expensive to send them abroad than to keep them at home.

MR. NEWDEGATE

suggested Vancouver's Island as a desirable place to which to send convicts.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

said, the Emigration Commissioners were, of course, very much guided by the wishes of the Colonies, which provided the emigration funds. Though anxious for female emigrants, the Colonists were much opposed to the inmates of the workhouses being sent to them.

MR. HENLEY

said, he thought it would soon become a question whether the colonists, who were so anxious to take people away from this country, should not be at the whole of the expense incurred.

MR. CAVE

paid, that this Board was not established at the instance of the Colonies, but rather as a check upon them, in order to carry out the strict regulations with which the Imperial Government had—and he thought very properly—fettered the emigration of Natives of India and China to the West Indies. The emigration agents, who did the colonial work in India and China, though requiring the approval of the Home Government, were paid entirely by the Colonies. Having had frequent communication with the Emigration Commissioners in London, he felt bound to bear testimony to their zeal and efficiency, and the good they had effected in placing emigration upon the best footing, as well as in dispelling many false impressions which had once prevailed regarding it.

MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE

observed, that the colonists would no doubt be very glad to carry on emigration without being subjected to any of the restrictions imposed by the Emigration Board, and, probably, they would on that condition be at the whole expense.

Vote agreed to; as was also.

(14.) £12,000 Captured Negroes and Liberated Africans.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £10,750, be granted to Her Majesty, to pay the Salaries and Expenses of the Mixed Commissions established under the Treaties with Foreign Powers for Suppressing the Traffic in Slaves, to the 31st day of March, 1861.

MR. CHILDERS

said, there was a large unexpended balance of £20,000 under this head, while £3,000 only had been spent, and he hoped some explanation would be given on the subject.

MR. DANBY SEYMOUR

objected to the Mixed Commission at the Havannah, where it was notorious that the slave trade was going on unchecked. This Commission was of no use whatever for the suppression of the slave trade at Cuba, and therefore he objected to its continuance. He believed that nothing would stop the slave trade but the encouragement of Coolie immigration from China to Cuba. The Spanish Government was perfectly able to suppress the trade if it chose to do so, and it was bound to do so by treaty. He moved that the Vote be reduced by £1,300, which was the sum for the Mixed Commission at Havannah.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the item of £1,300, for the Judge and Arbitration of the Mixed Commission Court at the Havana, be omitted from the proposed Vote.

MR. CAVE

hoped the Government would not be a party to the immigration of free persons into slave States. It was notorious that of the Coolies imported from China to Cuba hardly one ever returned to China, and that they remained as slaves. He had within the last few days received an account from an engineer who had been many years in Cuba, to the effect that the Chinese were treated in precisely the same manner as the negroes. He agreed with the hon. Member in his strictures on the conduct of Spain, but we should not forget that by our enormous and increasing consumption of slave sugar, we held out the greatest temptation to her to continue in that course.

SIR JAMES GRAHAM

said, he wished to draw the attention of the Committee to the pecuniary question. It appeared that there was an unexpended balance of £20,000, and yet they were asked for an additional sum of £10,000.

MR. LAING

said, the whole expense incurred under this Vote was paid out of the Treasury chest, and a settlement was made periodically. There could be no doubt that the sum put down as unexpended would be found to have been paid.

SIR JAMES GRAHAM

observed, that the explanation was an unsatisfactory one. It would be contrary to all ordinary rules to vote £10,000 for a particular purpose when an unexpended sum of £20,000 was in hand.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, almost the entire sum was for salaries, and it might be assumed that those salaries would be applied for. The question seemed to him to be one merely of balance and account, and there could be no doubt that it would be ultimately adjusted with the Treasury, and that it would be found that the sum was expended within the year.

SIR JAMES GRAHAM

said, he thought the argument of the right hon. Gentleman rather went to show that the sum had not been expended. He thought that, if ever there was a ease of unexpended balances on which the House ought to make a stand, the present was that ease. The simple question was, whether they were now to vote £10,000 when there was a balance of £20,000 unexpended.

MR. LAING

said, he had no doubt the matter could be satisfactorily explained. He would therefore recommend that the Vote be postponed, and in the meantime he would promise to make inquiry on the subject.

Motion and Original Question, by leave withdrawn. The following Votes were agreed to.

(15.) £142,713, Superannuation Allowances.

(16.) £1,140, Toulonese and Corsican Emigrants.

(17.) £325, Refuge for the Destitute.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

Committee to sit again this day, after the Order of the Day for the Report of Supply.

On Motion for going into Committee of Supply,