THE ORDNANCE SURVEY—25-INCH SCALE—RESOLUTION. (Hansard, 9 August 1860)

§ SIR MORTON PETO
rose to move that it is expedient to discontinue the Ordnance Survey on the 25-inch scale till the Survey on the 1-inch shall have been completed and published. In 1857 the question was discussed in a very full House, when it was decided by a very large majority that the 25-inch scale should be discontinued; and the noble Viscount, then, as now, at the head of the Government, stated that he regarded the vote at which the House had arrived as implying an opinion that no further survey should be made on the 25-inch scale:—where a survey had been already made on that scale, as in the case of Durham, it would of course remain as a matter of record, but ho interpreted the vote of the House to mean that no further survey ought to be made, or should be made on that scale. Since the House came to that decision upward of £250,000 had been voted, and the greater part of it had been spent on the 25-inch scale. He held that when Parliament deliberately recorded its decision, it ought to be held binding by the Government, and acted on; and he did not doubt that the noble Viscount would assent to that principle. But now a Vote of £90,000 was asked for on account of the Ordnance Survey, irrespective of the expenses for military services, and a great part of that also would no doubt be spent on the 25-inch scale. That scale, which he had the authority of the late Mr. Stephenson for saying was perfectly useless, and ought not to be proceeded with, had been applied to seventeen counties, notwithstanding the pledge of the noble Viscount. The 1-inch scale had been 993 commenced in 1784, and was not yet completed, the attention of the surveyors having been from time to time diverted to channels of minor importance. Looking to foreign countries, there was no instance of any general survey of the size of 1 in 2,500. In France the scale was 1 in 80,000; in Russia 1 in 120,000; in Bavaria 1 in 50,000; and in Germany 1 in 200,000. The map of England and Scotland would measure about 600 yards by 300, and would be larger than the London Docks; twice the size of Lincoln's Inn-fields; it would take the whole century to complete it, and would cost between £2,000,000 and £3,000,000. It was not required in England, and could not be compared with the Tithe Commutation map, which was perfectly sufficient for every purpose. The size was so great that the alterations which must take place before it was completed would render it perfectly inefficient for ordinary purposes. It represented not only every hedge in the country but every tree; on which side of the hedge the drains had been cut, and the side on which every field gate opened. Ten miles square of the country to be mapped would cover twenty feet square. It would be impossible to examine the map of a county without a ladder, and of the country without a balloon. The 1-inch scale map was amply sufficient for every public purpose. He did not think it necessary to go into further detail. He hoped to receive a distinct assurance from the Government that this expenditure would no longer be proceeded with. He should ask that the decision of the House in 1857 should be registered in the Journals, so that if there was a change of Government the new Ministers might be bound by the recorded decision of the House.

§ SIR JOHN SHELLEY
seconded the Motion.

§ MR. SIDNEY HERBERT
said, that would perhaps shorten the discussion of the question if he were to state what the Government proposed to do. His hon. Friend seemed to mistake the object of the 994 25-inch survey. It was one thing to form I a map and another tiling to form a cadastre. The latter is the object of the 25-inch survey. Ho did not see why this expenditure should be in the Army Estimates at all, because it would be chiefly valuable as affording facilities in courts of law, and for the valuation of estates, a purpose for which the 1-inch scale was insufficient. With regard to the question of expense, it should be borne in mind that the expense of proceeding on the larger scale was considerably reduced by the invention of machinery, and the extensive application of photography to mapping, and that in consequence the 25-inch scale would be little more costly than the 6-inch scale, whilst it would be more effective for its purpose. The 25-inch scale contained within it the 6-inch scale to which it could easily be reduced, whereas you could not enlarge the 6-inch scale to the 25-inch. What the Government proposed to do was to discontinue this year the opening of any new ground, whether upon the 6 or the 25-inch scale, inasmuch as the full force of Colonel James' establishment would be required for the purposes of military survey. It was therefore proposed merely that he should complete the survey of the counties which had already been begun, which were, he believed, the four northern counties. It had been proposed to commence the survey in the south of England this year, and to work on to the north, but that the Government proposed to arrest now. Between this and next year the Government would have time to consider the question, and Parliament could pronounce a deliberate opinion as to whether the survey on the larger scale should be proceeded with, and to what extent.

§ MR. E. P. BOUVERIE
said, he did not think the case was quite so clear with regard to the advantages of the 25-inch survey as the right hon. Gentleman seemed to imagine, inasmuch as strong evidence was given against it some years ago by some very eminent men. It had been carried out to a considerable extent in Scotland, and he thought it was desirable, before it was universally applied to England, to ascertain whether it had proved successful in the case of the former country or not.

GENERAL PEEL
said, lie would make use of that opportunity of apologizing to the House for an omission of duty on his part when he wa3 Secretary for War in not making a statement of the course 995 which Lord Derby's Government had deemed it advisable to take in proceeding with the 25-inch scale. A Resolution had originally been moved by the House that the survey should be conducted on the 6-inch scale; but a Commission had subsequently been appointed whose members had come to the conclusion that a 25-inch scale was that which ought to be adopted. That being so, the Government of Lord Derby had come to the decision that the survey of a few of the northern counties should be carried out on that scale, but that nothing more should be done without the House having had the opportunity of coming to a decision. Afterwards the question having arisen as to whether a scale reduced from 25 to 6 inches would be sufficiently accurate he had appointed a Commission composed of eminent scientific men to investigate the point, whose opinion was that the proposed method would be found to be most correct, the variation, he believed, not exceeding the 400th part of an inch. It was under those circumstances that the alteration was made, and he must again apologize to the House for not having brought the subject under its notice before.

§ MR. MONSELL
said, portions of this country had been surveyed on the 1-inch and portions on the 25-inch, while Ireland had been surveyed on the 6-inch scale, and that, if the House were to embark on a plan of re-survey on a 25-inch scale, they must be prepared for an expenditure of over £2,000,000 sterling.

COLONEL DUNNE
thought a 25-inch survey would be a useless expenditure. The 6-inch survey had been found perfectly satisfactory for all practical purposes, and it might, if required, be enlarged by photographic operations without much expense.

§ MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH
thought the statement of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sidney Herbert) unsatisfactory, inasmuch as it gave them no assurance that when the military surveyors had completed their work in the four counties he had mentioned, the civil engineers who would succeed them would not go over the same ground for the 6-inch or 1-inch survey, which he thought would be a useless expense.

§ MR. SIDNEY HERBERT
said, he would state the proportion which the un-surveyed bore to the surveyed parts of those counties when the Estimate relating to the point was before the House.

§ SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFE
said, that 996 inasmuch as the expense of the survey would be partly reimbursed by the sale of the maps, he wished to point out that in remote and thinly peopled districts the sale of the new maps would be likely to be extremely limited, while, if the survey were confined to districts important because of the amount of their population, the extent of their commerce, or other causes, the contrary might be expected to be the case.

§ MR. CARDWELL
said, that having been a Member of the Commission to which reference had been made, he was desirous of reminding the House that the recommendation of that Commission was that no further expense should be incurred in respect of either the 25-inch or the 6-inch survey until the 1-inch survey had been completed and had received the approval of Parliament.

§ SIR MORTON PETO
said, that after the assurance which had been given by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. S. Herbert) that no fresh ground should be broken until the 1-inch survey had been completed he would, with the permission of the House, withdraw his Amendment.

§ MR. CONINGHAM
asked, Whether the expense of the military surveys was to be considered additional to the Vote for fortifications.

§ MR. SIDNEY HERBERT
replied in the negative.