HC Deb 19 April 1860 vol 157 cc2008-12
SIR CHARLES NAPIER

said, there was such a wide difference of opinion on the subject of the Coastguard between the Secretary to the Admiralty and himself, that he must again refer to the matter. The number of the Coastguard was stated in the Estimates at 9,500. Seven years ago, Sir Charles Wood informed the House that they had a reserve of 8,500 men. The exact strength of the Coastguard at the present moment he found from Returns was 576 officers, 5,631 seamen, and 655 hoys, who, together with the 800 Naval Volunteers, constituted the whole Reserve force which the country possessed. And out of those 5,631 seamen, only 3,200 would be ready for the defence of the country in the event of anything unpleasant taking place on the Continent; yet the Manning Commission reported that for the safety of the country a Reserve force of not less than 70,000 men was necessary. If he were wrong in these figures, he hoped he should be corrected; but he had obtained them from head-quarters. In the present posture of affairs, the House would surely not be satisfied with so small a reserve as he had mentioned to fall back upon in any emergency.

LORD CLARENCE PAGET

did not suppose that anything he could say as representing the Admiralty would lead the gallant Admiral to believe that he was honestly endeavouring to give a true statement of the number of men available for sea service. Once for all, however, he would inform the gallant Admiral that, by a return just published by the Controller General of the Coastguard, the number of men and boys available for immediate sea service was 6,862. [Sir CHARLES NAPIER: Then my figures are quite correct.] He presumed, then, that the gallant Admiral had no complaint to make on that score, With regard to the Royal Naval Volunteers, it was true that only 800 of these had yet been enrolled; but there was, in his opinion, a very unnecessary alarm, both in Parliament and out of doors, upon the supposed failure of the scheme. From the first he never felt that seamen would join the new force all on a sudden, but, so far was he from regarding the progress of the Reserve force as unsatisfactory, that he was beginning to think it promised well. There was now a progressive increase weekly in the entry of men. In point of fact, they had only been ready to enrol the men since the 1st of the present month. The training ships had not before been in a state of preparation, and, as the men knew perfectly well that they could not begin exercising until the beginning of April, that fact, it might naturally be supposed, operated to prevent them from coming forward before. At the outset 30 or 40 a week were enrolled. The number was now increased to 100 per week, and if this rate could only be maintained there would soon be a very respectable force of Volunteers. It appeared to him that the gallant Admiral, by continually bringing before the House these statements as to the deficiency of our forces, acted very unreasonably, and did net tend either to advance his own credit or to promote the good of the country. The Government bad this year taken money Votes for 11,000 men more than were demanded for the service of the last year. They had no difficulty in getting men, who were entering—he would not say freely—but in a satisfactory way. So far were the Admiralty from finding any difficulty in obtaining men that they were declining to enter any but able seamen, unless they were men who had before been in the service. With respect to the Channel fleet, he was constantly visited by officers of high and low rank, who said, "Cannot you persuade the Member for Southwark to cease from offering continual encouragement to discontent among the crews?" He was bound to tell the gallant Admiral that his brother officers felt poignantly the continual complaints which he made about the men not having sufficient leave, when he could assure the House the fact was that they had more leave than had ever been conceded in former days. The cause of almost all the late disasters had been the prevalent practice of breaking leave; hut, irrespective of that, the fleet was in a healthy and satisfactory state considering how lately it had been created. There had been individual cases of insubordination, arising out of this question of leave, but the men were making good progress, and general contentment existed throughout the fleet. The gallant Admiral complained of the want of petty officers. No doubt there was. Could anybody expect, when a fleet had been created in so marvellously short a time, that it would have its full complement of experienced petty officers? At present, whenever a ship came home from foreign service, men who had behaved well were allowed to enter the Coastguard. This system accounted for the want of petty officers, for otherwise the men in question would now be petty officers on board the Channel fleet. The gallant Admiral's complaint on this score, therefore, was unfounded. He had made another more unreasonable than any. He stated that he had found the men were very overworked, were made to undergo excessive drill, and that great discontent existed in consequence. These complaints of coarse had gone down to the lower decks. [Sir CHARLES NAPIER: I complained of the system, not of the quantity.] He could not see the force of this distinction. He Lad that day received a visit from Admiral Elliott, who was Captain of the Channel fleet, who was much distressed at the statements that had been made, and he produced a statement showing that the utmost amount of drill on hoard his ships did not exceed two hours a day, and upon an average of a week only one hour a day. That certainly was not an excessive amount of drill. He fully admitted that the gallant Admiral honestly desired to improve the service, but a strong feeling prevailed at the Admiralty and on board the ships, that his speeches in that House were doing incalculable mischief to a young fleet, which was now well-disposed, because they led the sailors to imagine grievances which really had no existence. He would not enter then upon the question of shipbuilding, because a notice had been given by an hon. Member on the subject. He hoped that when it came on the whole matter would be thoroughly sifted.

MR. DISBY SEYMOUR

wished to know whether any school-ships were to be established, recording to the recommendation of the Manning Commission, who said that they were the best source of supply for our naval force. The important subject of our Naval Reserve had been most ably treated in an article in that day's Times, and the question of school-ships was in- timately connected with it. The Commission suggested that twelve school-ships should be placed in the principal ports of the kingdom. He hoped a supplemental Estimate would be introduced to provide for that want, and if no one else moved he would move such an Estimate. The great steamship companies of Southampton were willing to give liberal assistance in the formation of a Naval Reserve, and he hoped that at least Government would meet half way those ports which were inclined to contribute towards the establishment of school-ships.

SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONE

warmly supported the establishment of school-ships, which, he said, the Manning Commission looked upon as the foundation of their scheme. If that plan was not carried on simultaneously with, or in advance of, the Naval Reserve, it would take away from it half its efficacy. He was perfectly satisfied that the great shipping ports would gladly defray part of the expense of the school-ships. The late troubles in the fleet had arisen not from drilling or working too much, but entirely from the breaking of leave, which showed a great laxity of morals among the men. One cause of this was the desperately bad places the seaman got into when he went ashore—places where he was fleeced of all his money, and utterly prostrated both in body and mind. He had seen, in the streets of Portsmouth, sailors; of the Royal Navy lying about disgracefully drunk, with nobody to look after them. It was not so in the army, for if soldiers kept out beyond a certain hour the pickets were sent to bring them in. He would therefore press upon the Government the necessity of establishing a police at the different dockyards and naval ports who would know where every man who landed would be found. As to the drill, the men suffered from a want of work rather than from an excess of it.

MR. WHITBREAD

, in reply to what had been said about establishing more training ships, explained that as yet they were rather a novelty, and there were many questions of detail to be considered before the Government could form an exact estimate of the annual expense of maintaining them. One vessel had been appropriated for the training of the boys, and as soon as the Admiralty had some little experience in the matter, they would shape their future course accordingly. The proposition to go halves with Southampton was one which the Admiralty were not yet prepared to deal with. It was perfectly correct that an offer had been made to the Admiralty by the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Packet Company to allow the sailors of their magnificent vessels to be trained in the Royal Naval Reserve, while continuing to receive their wages from the Peninsular and Oriental Company.

MR. JACKSON

said, he would postpone until the next Supply night the Motion of which he had given notice for a Commission of Inquiry into the control and management of the dockyards.

Motion agreed to.

House in Committee.