HC Deb 03 April 1860 vol 157 cc1807-8
MR. E. P. BOUVERIE

asked leave to bring in a Bill to abolish the jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Courts in Ireland in cases of defamation, and in England, Wales, and Ireland in cases of brawling. He said he ought perhaps to apologise to the Irish Members for interfering in this matter, but having already introduced a Bill to abolish those Courts in England and Wales, he was requested by persons connected with Ireland to introduce a similar measure for that country. He proposed to place the jurisdiction of the Irish Ecclesiastical Courts on the same footing as the English Courts in cases of defamation, and to abolish the jurisdiction of the Courts altogether in cases of brawling in England and Ireland.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

wished to make one remark as to the proposed abolition of any proceeding in the Ecclesiastical Courts against brawling. His attention had lately been directed to that subject. As he understood the matter, at present brawling in church was purely an ecclesiastical offence. Unless there was a breach of the peace there was no power of maintaining order in a church except by a suit in the Ecclesiastical Courts. His right hon. Friend proposed by this Bill to repeal that remedy without substituting any civil remedy. Doubtless a suit in the Ecclesiastical Courts was a very costly and cum- brous proceeding; but a civil remedy ought to be substituted if the law were to remain in its integrity.

COLONEL FRENCH

could not understand what induced the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock to attempt legislation on this subject. He (Colonel French) had never heard of any complaints of brawling in churches being made in Ireland. If such an offence existed, he thought that Irish Members would be fully competent to deal with it. He objected to all such amateur statesmen trying their 'prentice hand on Ireland.

MR. E. P. BOUVERIE

reminded the hon. and gallant Gentleman that the general complaint of Irish Members was that the law of England was not extended to Ireland. He could assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that he had been informed that the offence of brawling in churches did exist in Ireland, and that he had been requested by some Irish gentlemen to introduce a measure for that country similar to the one he had introduced for England and Wales. In reply to the observations of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department, he believed that there was a statute of Queen Mary which provided a civil remedy in civil courts for this offence of brawling.

Leave given. Bill to abolish the Jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Courts in Ireland in cases of defamation, and in England and Wales and Ireland in cases of brawling, ordered to be brought in by Mr. EDWARD PLEYDELL, BOUVERIE and Mr. MELLOR.