SUPPLY.—ARMY ESTIMATES. (Hansard, 7 March 1859)

§ SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY
complained that money which had been voted for regiments of the line had been applied by the Government to the regiments of militia. He hoped the House would censure such a proceeding, or they would lose all control over the appropriation of the supplies.

MR. WILSON
agreed with what the hon. Baronet had said. The late Government did it under the first pressure of the Indian revolt, when the suddenness of the outbreak forced them to do so. But the whole thing was irregular, and Parliament very properly criticised them for doing so. But now there was no excuse whatever, as the whole circumstances were perfectly well known beforehand, and the House should require that the Estimates should be so framed that each portion of the service should have its separate Vote.

GENERAL PEEL
said, the circumstances were not known beforehand. The money was voted for the regiments of the line, and as soon as those regiments came home they would be supported by it; but in the meantime the militia regiments, who were doing the duty of those regiments till their return, and who would be disembodied as soon as they returned, were thus supported. This course prevented the necessity of a Supplementary Vote. It came to exactly the same thing, but, if the hon. Baronet preferred it, he had no objection to bringing forward a Supplementary Vote for the money.

MR. W. WILLIAMS
hoped if the hon. and gallant General brought forward such 1405 an estimate, the House would refuse it. He had the utmost aversion to Supplementary Estimates.

§ MR. WARRE
wished to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty if the gun-boats at present in the Chinese waters were to be ordered home; whether it was the intention of Government to provide periodical service afloat for the Coast-guard, and what steps were to be taken to reduce the navy list from its present chaotic form into order? He regretted that there should be a paucity of mates in the service, and that the difficulty of getting ships prevented many meritorious captains qualifying for active flag appointments. He only hoped the House would cheerfully vote every sum required for the efficient state of the navy, and that the Admiralty would take care to have an adequate naval force, not only to maintain our supremacy in the Channel, but also in all other parts of the world.

§ SIR JOHN PAKINGTON
did not expect these questions to be introduced now. With regard to the gun boats, the Government had no intention at present to recall them. With regard to time Coast-guard, a considerable portion of them was already employed afloat. In respect to the hon. Gentleman's remarks upon what had fallen from him (Sir J. Pakington) the other evening, he should repeat that in the upper part of the navy they were full, but there was a deficiency in the lower ranks. The cause of this was that there had been regulations in force which restricted the number of young men admitted in each year. Those restrictions had been removed since he entered office, and consequently this deficiency would be supplied. Inasmuch as the hon. Gentleman had given him no notice of his intention to put those questions to him, he hoped he might be excused from following him any further in his remarks.

GENERAL PEEL
, in moving a Vote of £1,050,000 to defray the deficiency in certain army grants of last year, stated that this deficiency arose before the present Government had entered into office, and was occasioned by the Indian mutiny and the Chinese war. A great many regiments bad been sent from this country, and fresh regiments had to be raised in their places. No provision had been made for raising them, and the expenses attendant upon them not having been provided for in the 1406 Estimates of the year, became now apparently an excess. A large proportion of this Vote was of course to be repaid out of the Indian revenue. There were also many demands made on the East India Company for stores, &c. A debt was due then from the Company to the Army Estimates of a sum amounting to upwards of £600,000. The Company not having obtained the money in time in the financial year, it could not be made available in the way of reducing the excess. A Vote of credit had been taken, in order to cover the naval and military expenses, but when the expenses were made up in November it was found that the whole of the money was absorbed, and therefore there was nothing left for the Army Estimates. These facts accounted for the excess of 1,050,000 which was now asked for.

§ MR. MACARTNEY
said, that since the establishment of the Consolidated War Department it appeared to be necessary every year to apply to the House for a supplemental Vote beyond the amount asked for in the Estimates. This practice arose in consequence of the 9th & 10th Vict., which regulated the audit of the public accounts. There was a great difficulty now in understanding the accounts. He hoped that the Government would adopt the recommendation of the Committee that sat upon the subject of the public monies.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS
said, that the explanation of the hon. and gallant General was perfectly clear, and ought to satisfy the House. With respect to £600,000 it was a sum to be repaid out of the revenues of India. The Government which preceded the present were responsible for allowing the East India Company to be in arrear for a certain time, and for allowing the War Department to make advances to the Company for the expenses of regiments that proceeded to India, and for certain stores. As the finances of India were pressed by the extraordinary demands caused by the mutiny, he thought it was a legitimate exercise of the discretion of the Government. There was some delay in passing the Bill by which the East India Company were authorized to borrow money, and but for that delay the sum would probably have been restored within the year. Inasmuch as it was not repaid until after the 1st of April it went to time credit of the succeeding year, and therefore it became necessary as a matter of account, to ask for a Vote of £600,000. With regard to £180,000 that was merely a question of account, 1407 owing to the operation of the Appropriation Act. With respect to £200,000, it appeared that the Admiralty obtained the lion's share of the £400,000 from the Company, and that also was a mere question of account. He thought the right hon. and gallant Gentleman had satisfactorily explained the grounds of the Vote. It did not necessitate any payment at present, and he trusted the Committee would agree to it without delay.

§ SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY
denied that the £180,000 was a matter of account. It was an expenditure of money without the authority of Parliament. That money had been voted for certain purposes and it was not competent to divert it from those purposes or to make any alteration in respect to it after the Appropriation Act. They were now called on to vote money which had been actually spent, and if that principle were extended what would become of the functions of the House of Commons? He wished to hear an explanation of an item of £54,052 for civil buildings and barracks. By whose authority was payment of that sum made?

GENERAL PEEL
said, this excess was mainly caused by certain works of an urgent and important character which were ordered by the Secretary of State and approved by the Treasury.

§ MR NEWDEGATE
urged upon the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War the necessity of producing the debtor and creditor account of the establishment at Weedon which was asked for by the Committee of 1854, and had therefore been due for five years.